China's SCS Strategy Thread

plawolf

Lieutenant General
That's just normal negotiating tactics. You always go into negotiations with an inflated offer and/or unrealistic demands, that is the 'currency' of the negotiating table, which you can 'spend' to get the other side to make concessions in exchange for you dropping the issue and/or lowering your demands. That way you could give ground without having to give up things that really matter to you.

Although I am actually glad the Philippines is not copying America's bad habit of setting fires in other people's backyards before key meeting, so they could then offer to put out the fire in exhange for major concessions from the other side as a means to get things for free.
 

advill

Junior Member
Pla
That's just normal negotiating tactics. You always go into negotiations with an inflated offer and/or unrealistic demands, that is the 'currency' of the negotiating table, which you can 'spend' to get the other side to make concessions in exchange for you dropping the issue and/or lowering your demands. That way you could give ground without having to give up things that really matter to you.

Although I am actually glad the Philippines is not copying America's bad habit of setting fires in other people's backyards before key meeting, so they could then offer to put out the fire in exhange for major concessions from the other side as a means to get things for free.
plawolf appears you are familiar with international/cultural negotiation ploys. One important aspect is that make sure the money is used for what has been negotiated & agreed, & never in someone's pocket/s. The Chinese business people (and I believe diplomats & some government leaders) are and experienced good negotiators.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Mainly because US didn't give enough Money to Philippines.
For all its moves to support to US, Philippines only received 30Mil, that's chump change. Some one in Philipppines said that's money for the Beggars.


I believe I mentioned that before where the US doesn't have enough money to please all the countries it needs to go against China and one will always feel like they're getting the raw deal because Asia nationalism is notorious for wanting to feel special above everyone else so treating or "paying" them all equally doesn't work either.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It's not about money handouts, it was never about money handouts.

China is the largest trading partner for all other Asian nations, America cannot and will not be handing out the hundreds of billions needed to compensate those nations for the economic fallout from any clash (even just diplomatic, as the Philippines found out) with China.

That is what TPPA was supposed to be about.

The American containment strategy against China, AKA the Pivot, was supposed to be a two part component.

On the economic side, there is the TPPA, designed to unseat China as the regions biggest and most important economic player.

On the diplomatic and military side, the US was effectively issuing blank cheques to anyone and everyone who has any disputes with China to pursue their claims as aggressively as possible short of unilateral armed aggression.

The US would turn a deliberate blind eye to those destabilising actions, and only weigh in when China inevitably counters.

The goal was to create trouble in an area of core interest to China, but which is far enough as to deny China the home field advantage in the event of an actual armed clash.

The calculation was that the SCS was too far for the PLA to be able to effectively engage the USN in actual combat, so the chances of an overwhelming American win is significantly greater compared to a clash in the East China Sea, over the Diaoyu islands for example. And the stakes are not so high as to force Beijing to consider seriously escalation over accepting defeat.

With that 'bottom line' established, the US could push China as hard as it likes 'safe' in the knowledge that the Chinese will either be forced to back down in the face of overwhelming American military superiority; or take a hiding if it was 'stupid' enough to take the bait and get into a scrap with the US; bad enough to 'put China in its place', but not quite enough to be worth starting WWIII over.

That was the deal the Philippines and others signed onto when it all started with Hillary sabotaging Chinese attempts at reaching a peaceful solution to the disputes.

They thought they could carve up the SCS between them and leave China with nothing and China won't be able to do anything about it with the might of the US military behind them.

TPPA would help to offset any economic damage, given the enormous economical, strategic and political windfalls they can get from effectively annexing the SCS and all its resources, even if TPPA doesn't cover all the economic losses from loss of trade to China, it will still be a good deal.

Problem is China had other ideas.

It's island building and civilian coast guard led power projection in the SCS caught the US out cold.

It was a move the US simply did not even dream as possible, so had no effective counter.

China was able to turn its position in the SCS from a few token outposts, that were more liability than asset in the event of actual war, into by far the most dominant in the region. Able to give even the USN a far tougher fight than it has any stomach for.

The Philippines also got caught out badly when it tried to engineer a crises at Scarborough Shoal by sending its naval flagship to corner some Chinese fishermen there, and waiting for Chinese government ships to show up to create a standoff.

The Chinese won that standoff, thanks in no small part to luckwarm American support for the Philippines, and China had controlled Scarborough since.

In the meantime, TPPA is looking more and more dead in the water.

So America is failing to deliver on any of its secret promises, while all those countries who bought into the American deal are all feeling the cost of that choice.

Is it any wonder they are now looking to hedge their bets?
 
now I read Analysis: Chinese South China Sea Operations Ambiguous After Ruling
China’s compliance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) tribunal’s ruling regarding rights, activities and entitlements in the South China Sea is much less certain than one might expect, we
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in a previous post at Lawfare. By our analysis, there are no reports that China has taken actions in clear violation of nine of fifteen rulings handed down by the tribunal. Therefore, while China is not in “compliance” with the arbitral award, neither is it in complete “non-compliance.”

It is important, however, to more finely characterize the sources of our uncertainty, as they highlight different concerns about future Chinese behavior. We find three areas of uncertainty in China’s compliance with the award.

Ambiguous Claims to Historic Rights in the South China Sea
The tribunal found that UNCLOS superseded all historic rights not specifically provided for in the Convention. More specifically, it asserted that the only historic right available to China in its dispute with the Philippines would be traditional (artisanal) fishing rights within the Philippines’ territorial seas. Responding to the award, China reiterated that it has “historic rights in the South China Sea,” but never specified whether it agreed with the tribunal’s understanding of historic rights.

At first glance, this might seem like an area ripe for compromise. China could come away from a negotiation asserting that it had always understood historic rights to only include what was specifically provided in UNCLOS, appear to not capitulate to the Philippines, and extract concessions for scaling back its rhetoric. Years of nationalist propaganda, however, make such a grand bargain unlikely.

Chinese scholar Luo Xi, looking at populist responses to the ruling in July,
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that modern populist nationalism “values national esteem more than [at] any time before.” Indeed, Luo reports that Chinese social media was flooded with army veterans pledging to “be back to the front” in the event of a war for the South China Sea. And while Beijing might temporarily benefit from this sentiment, nationalists may be getting ahead of the Communist Party. A week after the ruling was released, Chinese state-owned media began
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“irrational patriotism” as netizens boycotted foreign products (including IPhones and KFC) and “unpatriotic” movie stars.

If the Party’s narrative has indeed gotten ahead of its national interests, it is difficult to imagine how Chinese President Xi Jinping can redefine China’s historic claims under the 9 Dash Line to be limited to traditional fishing rights.

No Statements on Characterization of Specific Maritime Features
Much of the decision was spent assessing the legal characterization of disputed maritime features, including Scarborough Shoal, Mischief Reef, Subi Reef, and others. These characterizations matter. A feature that is above water only at low tide outside of a country’s territorial sea is not entitled to any maritime zone. A land mass that is above water at all times, but cannot sustain an economic life of its own or human habitation (rock) is entitled to a 12 nautical mile territorial sea. On the other hand, a land mass that can sustain an economic life of its own or human habitation (island) gets an additional 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and entitlement to a continental shelf.

Faced with these stakes, China must grapple with two issues. First, it must determine whether it agrees with data used by the tribunal to characterize disputed features. There is relatively little contemporary data on the South China Sea’s geography and facts about the natural condition of some objects may never be known now that artificial islands have been built. But we do know that China is
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in technology to more accurately map and survey features in South China Sea, suggesting that, as its presence in the region grows, China will be better equipped to refute the tribunal’s factual conclusions.

China must also decide whether to accept the tribunal’s interpretation of “human habitation” and “economic life of its own,” UNCLOS’ ambiguous criteria for defining an island. The China-Philippines tribunal was the first to interpret these criteria, and it opted to construe them so as to “[prevent] encroachment on the international seabed” and “[avoid] the inequitable distribution of maritime spaces.” This narrow understanding likely runs contrary to many countries’ maritime claims and may explain why none have, as yet, taken a clear position on the tribunal’s analysis of this question. Given the stakes, it seems unlikely that China would move to do so first.

No Reports that China has Allowed its Vessels to Operate Unlawfully
Finally, the tribunal criticized operations by Chinese vessels that prevented Filipino nationals from fishing in the Philippines’ EEZ and posed a navigational risk to Filipino vessels. It also condemned China for failing to prevent its fishermen from exploiting endangered species, particularly giant clams. While there have been no reports since the decision was released that China has continued these activities, it certainly retains the capacity to do so. The biggest question going forward on these issues, therefore, is whether China will continue to refrain from this behavior.

We are most likely to see progress in negotiations arising from these issues because, unlike the above two categories, China is less restrained by domestic nationalism. It has greater latitude, therefore, to make concessions on these issues at the negotiating table. Something similar may be occurring right now as Beijing courts Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte by
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its plans for constructing artificial islands and engaging in other provocative gestures.

Takeaways
Ambiguity is not monolithic. In some areas, namely operations by Chinese-flagged vessels, it gives China leverage to improve its position at future negotiations and may open the door to a greater variety of solutions. In other areas, particularly regarding the precise nature of China’s 9-Dash-Line claims, ambiguity is less amenable to change and negotiation. It is highly unlikely we will see China publicly agree to comply with an arbitral award it has spent months denigrating and de legitimatizing. But that does not mean the actual terms of the arbitral award will not matter. Policymakers should remain attuned to this complex interplay of law, domestic politics, technology, and military power in assessing how the tribunal’s decision may be used as a basis for future negotiations.
source is USNI News:
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Blackstone

Brigadier
now I read Analysis: Chinese South China Sea Operations Ambiguous After Ruling

source is USNI News:
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Oh wow, it's actually a fairly evenhanded analysis. I expected some 'bad China' rants, with recommendations like "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" But, it turned out to be a "just the facts, ma'am" article.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
That analysis is just a load of self serving nonsense, trying to add weight and legitimacy to a total farce. Just notice the indecent haste the actual ICC moved to highlight the fact that tribunal had nothing to do with it; and the deafening silence from the legal community after the ruling.

I cannot recall a single legal expert of note that was willing to go on record in support of that ruling, because it was such a blatantly biased and bad ruling with exceptionally dubious legal reasoning across the board, that would set a lot of really terrible legal precedents if allowed to stand.

China has already made its position on the ruling perfectly clear. As far as China is concerned, that was a fart in the wind. Chinese leaders will not be wasting any time trying to split hairs on the words of what they see as a kangaroo court that doesn't even have the actual legal standing of a court.

The main reason things have quietened down in the SCS is because the actual chief architects of the rising of tensions in the region - Vietnam and the Philippines, are trying to climb down and de-escalate the situation.

For the moment, China content to wait patiently and let others make the first move. But woe be told anyone daft enough to try and impose that ruling on China.

Vietnam especially, is not stupid and had plenty of time to get a good feel for China's moods. That is a principle reason they are laying low and avoiding any hint of provocation right now. Because they fear that China is ready and looking to make an example to show that it is not to be trifled with.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
That analysis is just a load of self serving nonsense, trying to add weight and legitimacy to a total farce. Just notice the indecent haste the actual ICC moved to highlight the fact that tribunal had nothing to do with it; and the deafening silence from the legal community after the ruling.

I cannot recall a single legal expert of note that was willing to go on record in support of that ruling, because it was such a blatantly biased and bad ruling with exceptionally dubious legal reasoning across the board, that would set a lot of really terrible legal precedents if allowed to stand.

China has already made its position on the ruling perfectly clear. As far as China is concerned, that was a fart in the wind. Chinese leaders will not be wasting any time trying to split hairs on the words of what they see as a kangaroo court that doesn't even have the actual legal standing of a court.

The main reason things have quietened down in the SCS is because the actual chief architects of the rising of tensions in the region - Vietnam and the Philippines, are trying to climb down and de-escalate the situation.

For the moment, China content to wait patiently and let others make the first move. But woe be told anyone daft enough to try and impose that ruling on China.

Vietnam especially, is not stupid and had plenty of time to get a good feel for China's moods. That is a principle reason they are laying low and avoiding any hint of provocation right now. Because they fear that China is ready and looking to make an example to show that it is not to be trifled with.


I like how condescending the last couple sentences from the article describing,

"Policymakers should remain attuned to this complex interplay of law, domestic politics, technology, and military power in assessing how the tribunal’s decision may be used as a basis for future negotiations."

meaning the Court of Arbitration has already NO legal validity what so ever, therefore the world must heed to it's power because it suggested so or else something might happen.:rolleyes:
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Duterte will soon visit China . He bring a huge economic delegation(400) to China which is naturally consist of large Phillipino Chinese contingent.
This article below unjustly blame Phillipino Chinese for Duerte turn around
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.
When the likely cause is maybe Duterte left leaning inclination from his university day. Though he himself also has Chinese heritage from his mother side like so many of Phillipino elite.
For a community that is often subject to kidnapping and extortion. It is no secret why the Phillipino Chinese like Duerte. It has nothing to do with his turning back on US

And they hint or hope for regime change
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The Philippine president is determined to forge closer ties with China — but at what cost?

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Since he took office on June 30, Philippine President Rodrigo Roa Duterte — also known as “Duterte Harry” — has
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international notoriety for a harsh anti-drug campaign that has led to the extrajudicial killings of more than 3,600 alleged traffickers around the country. The crackdown has alarmed the European Union, the United Nations, and the United States. At one point Duterte called Barack Obama “a son of a whore,” later telling the U.S. president “to go to hell” after Washington dared to criticize the murders. Sooner or later, Duterte has vowed, he will “break up with America,” the Philippines’ longstanding treaty ally and security guarantor.

There’s one international power that doesn’t seem particularly bothered by Duterte’s excesses. “The Chinese side fully understands and firmly supports the Duterte administration’s policy that [prioritizes] the fight against drug crimes,” said Chinese Ambassador to the Philippines Zhao Jianhua in a speech last month. He went on to express his satisfaction at the “friendly interactions’ between the two countries since the new president began his term, predicting that the sun “will shine beautifully on the new chapter of bilateral relations.”


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In anything, the ambassador may have understated the matter. This week Duterte is set to meet Chinese President Xi Jinping in Beijing, where the two are planning to sign a range of high-level bilateral agreements that will dramatically boost trade and investment between the two countries. Nor is their new friendship restricted to business. The visit comes just days after Duterte
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an end to joint Philippine-American naval patrols in the strategically sensitive waters of the South China Sea, where China has been steadily expanding its presence despite rival claims by Manila and other countries. The 65-year alliance between the U.S. and the Philippines has never looked so fragile.

So why the shift in policy? On one level, Duterte’s desire to seek friendship with the Chinese reflects a willingness to appease Beijing’s aggressive stance in the disputed waters. Chinese Coast Guard warships armed with machine guns and water cannons have harassed Philippine fishermen, preventing them from earning their livelihoods in their traditional fishing grounds in the South China Sea (90 percent of which China claims as its own). Chinese dredges have been deployed well within the Philippines’ 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone, where they have destroyed irreplaceable coral reefs to build airstrips and naval bases aimed at enhancing Chinese offensive power. China has also forcibly prevented Filipinos from developing valuable oil, gas, and mineral resources that they’ll need in the coming years to power their electricity grid. “I will not go to war” over such matters, Duterte has declared.

On July 12, just short of two weeks into Duterte’s presidential term, an international tribunal in The Hague ruled that China has been acting in violation of Beijing’s sworn obligations under international maritime law. The litigation was brought in 2013 by Duterte’s predecessor, Benigno Aquino Jr., who sought to use the rule of law to rally international opinion to pressure the Chinese to respect Philippine sovereignty. Now Duterte appears to be signaling that he’s willing to overlook the tribunal’s findings if China is willing to do a deal.

There are various explanations for Duterte’s eagerness to seek a compromise. Some of those who know the president well suggest that the pivot is rooted in the left-of-center ideology he has professed in his past, which left him with a residual suspicion of the West (and Americans in particular). Duterte openly admires one of his former college professors, Jose Maria Sison — the founder of the Communist Party of the Philippines and its armed wing, the New People’s Army. Others point out that Duterte, who has several times threatened to declare martial law, has praised authoritarian leaders like former Philippine strongman Ferdinand Marcos. And besides China’s President Xi, Russia’s Vladimir Putin has been wooing the Philippine president with suggestions of cheap financing for Russian attack helicopters.

Meanwhile, Duterte and his foreign secretary, Perfecto Yasay, have been courting the support of business elites who favor closer relations with Beijing. In his career as a lawyer, Yasay represented the interests of Chinese-Filipino tycoons who have good connections in Beijing. Yasay, who brought no foreign policy experience to his position, has also been careful to speak respectfully of the Chinese — while telling an audience of Washington, D.C. insiders that Filipinos no longer want to be America’s “little brown brothers.”

Among Yasay’s prominent clients has been Lucio Tan, one of the country’s richest men, who Duterte has said was one of the first to urge him to seek the presidency. While little-known outside Asia, billionaire Tan — who was born in China’s Fujian province and is considered on the mainland to be a “patriotic” Chinese — is one of the most controversial figures in Philippine political circles. He was one of the original so-called “Marcos cronies,” who became rich thanks to the tax breaks and other government subsidies granted in the 1970s by Ferdinand Marcos.

After Marcos was deposed in 1986, a series of successive Philippine prosecutors sought unsuccessfully to recover Tan’s allegedly ill-gained wealth. Today, he is chairman of Philippine Airlines, the country’s flagship carrier, and has extensive holdings in banking, mining, tobacco, beer, hotels and property development. He’s also made some major investments in China, which have clearly earned him the goodwill of Beijing. When Chinese presidents come to Manila, they always stay in one of Tan’s hotels.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(Cont)
Though there’s no evidence that Duterte is financially beholden to Tan — the president says he turned down the tycoon’s offer of cash and the use of aircraft during the campaign — they share a strong interest in closer ties with the Chinese. During his campaign, Duterte received an especially warm welcome from the Federation of Filipino-Chinese Chambers of Commerce and Industry, of which Tan is an honorary chairman. Along with the Chinese ambassador, Tan was one of the first prominent visitors Duterte received after his election victory.

In his eagerness to establish close economic ties with Beijing, Duterte has also said he is looking to revive various Chinese-Philippine joint ventures that were envisioned a decade ago during the presidency of Gloria Arroyo. The most notable project on Arroyo’s watch involved a $329 million telecommunications contract with China’s state-owned ZTE Corp. But Arroyo’s hopes to forge closer economic ties with China were derailed by various allegations of pay-offs that involved ZTE, Arroyo herself, and members of her entourage. Authorities in Manila recently dropped graft charges against Arroyo and her former colleagues, and her four-year house arrest has been lifted. Duterte has insisted that he had nothing to do with those decisions, though he had publicly offered to pardon Arroyo, in any case.

While no corruption allegations have surfaced in the new Duterte administration, the concerns about the adverse consequences of doing business with China remain. As Philippine professor Aileen Baviera has observed, the ZTE deal “was an example of how Chinese wealth … can undermine already weak institutions and government norms in a recipient country.”

While some members of the Manila elite worry that Duterte’s campaign of extrajudicial killings threatens to corrode the hard-won rule of law, Filipino-Chinese businessmen are among the most vocal defenders of the president’s drug war. And a tycoon from mainland China, Huang Rulun, who first acquired his wealth while living in the Philippines, has pleased Duterte by volunteering to pay for a new internment camp for thousands of drug users who have surrendered to police rather than fall victim to the slaughter.

While Duterte is currently riding high in public opinion polls, signs of a backlash are already starting to emerge. A notable indicator came last week when respected elder statesman and ex-President Fidel Ramos — whom Duterte has said would be a special envoy to China — publically expressed deep concerns about where the new Philippine leader is headed. Ramos lamented that “Team Philippines” is losing, “and losing badly.” Also last week, Supreme Court Justice Antonio Carpio even felt it necessary to remind Duterte that to surrender Philippine sovereign rights would be an “impeachable offense.”

Indeed, if Duterte continues on his current course — downplaying the legally binding decision of the Hague tribunal and watering down his own country’s territorial claims — his honeymoon with voters could end quickly. The Philippines remains one of the most pro-American countries in the world; in one recent survey, a whopping 92 percent of the population held positive attitudes towards the U.S. And some of the most pro-American Filipinos are to be found in the military, which looks to the American security relationship to counter Chinese bullying — which might help to explain why Duterte has been busily showering top officers with favors and cash.
 
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