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by78

General
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The new yard, on which MoD spent over Rs. 800 crores to set up, came online in June 2013. In the words of one
of the shipyard authorities :

Whereas before, P15A's hull took three years to finish, now this goliath crane should shorten the time spent on the hull to a more internationally acceptable standard of perhaps 16 months or less for a ship of her displacement.

Still, that's only 20 or so months saved. As I have said before, P15A took a further 11 years to enter service after her hull was finished.

Do you have any information on the 'new methods' that promise to shorten the '11 years' that came after the hull?

If not, then we might see P15B in service sometime in 2024.
 
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Gessler

New Member
Whereas before, P15A's hull took three years to finish, now this goliath crane should shorten the time spent on the hull to a more internationally acceptable standard of perhaps 16 months or less for a ship of her displacement.

Still, that's only eight or so months saved. As I have said before, P15A took a further 11 years to enter service after her hull was finished.

Do you have any information on the 'new methods' that promise to shorten the '11 years' that came after the hull?

If not, then we might see P15B in service sometime in 2024.

I don't have any info beyond what's mentioned in the article. But knowing that much of 15B's stuff is the same
as on 15A, it won't be 2024 to build it. More like 2018.
 

by78

General
I don't have any info beyond what's mentioned in the article. But knowing that much of 15B's stuff is the same
as on 15A, it won't be 2024 to build it. More like 2018.

I'm not optimistic, since P15B is supposed to have an upgraded sensor and combat suite, along with a new variant of the Barak, not to mention other weapons new to it that will have to be integrated.

Let'w wait and see, but I don't expect the first ship to enter service until around 2020, judging by India's track record.
 

Gessler

New Member
I'm not optimistic, since P15B is supposed to have an upgraded sensor and combat suite, along with a new variant of the Barak, not to mention other weapons new to it that will have to be integrated.

Let'w wait and see, but I don't expect the first ship to enter service until around 2020, judging by India's track record.

Anyone can estimate whatever they like. Who expected US JSF program to be delayed this long?

Anything can happen once you get down to building something, just that measures are being taken by MDL
to cut down on time as much as possible right now. However, I don't expect their efficiency to be on par
with the private shipyards like Pipavav or L&T myself.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Whereas before, P15A's hull took three years to finish, now this goliath crane should shorten the time spent on the hull to a more internationally acceptable standard of perhaps 16 months or less for a ship of her displacement.

Still, that's only eight or so months saved. As I have said before, P15A took a further 11 years to enter service after her hull was finished.

Do you have any information on the 'new methods' that promise to shorten the '11 years' that came after the hull?

If not, then we might see P15B in service sometime in 2024.
The main issues had to do with weapons and systems integration...and delays in those systems.

Many of those systems and weapons will now be available for the new vessels, or they are much further advanced and along.

I expect we will see the Alpha follow on design come into service much sooner.

The Alpha models will now be produced each year such that by the end of 2016 all three will be in service. I expect the first Bravo to perhaps come into service in 2018 or 2019.

Time will tell.
 

by78

General
The main issues had to do with weapons and systems integration...and delays in those systems.

Many of those systems and weapons will now be available for the new vessels, or they are much further advanced and along.

I expect we will see the Alpha follow on design come into service much sooner.

The Alpha models will now be produced each year such that by the end of 2016 all three will be in service. I expect the first Bravo to perhaps come into service in 2018 or 2019.

Time will tell.

Jeff, 2019 would be close to my ballpark estimate of 2020, assuming everything goes well bureaucratically and politically and that the Rupee doesn't depreciate any further. Again, the outlook is very cloudy and uncertain, given India's astonishingly abysmal track record on delivering defense items.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Jeff, 2019 would be close to my ballpark estimate of 2020, assuming everything goes well bureaucratically and politically and that the Rupee doesn't depreciate any further.
In the mean time, the Indians will commission all three of the Kolkatas now over the next couple of years, and have built a credible number of modern Shivaliks and Talwars (those built by Russia).

Equally importantly, as has been indicated, is their commissioning of the Chakra and the likely build and commissioning of a second Akula to the same specifications.

I have a nice
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Those Akulas are very, very potent SSNs. Only the Sea Wolf, Virginia's, Astutes and Yasen are more capable. Very dangerous boats and even those I listed would have to be very wary of them.

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by78

General
In the mean time, the Indians will commission all three of the Kolkatas now over the next couple of years, and have built a credible number of modern Shivaliks and Talwars (those built by Russia).

Equally importantly, as has been indicated, is their commissioning of the Chakra and the likely build and commissioning of a second Akula to the same specifications.

I have a nice
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.

Those Akulas are very, very potent SSNs. Only the Sea Wolf, Virginia's, Astutes and Yasen are more capable. Very dangerous boats and even those I listed would have to be very wary of them.

The Russians do build powerfully armed and very quiet submarines. Not as quiet as the Seawolf or Virginia class, but very quiet nonetheless.

I've always loved the hydrodynamic contours of the conning towers. My goodness, they are pretty boats no doubt.

But back to the Indian Navy, my understanding is that they are far, far behind their own acquisition goals, whether it be submarines, frigates, or destroyers.

The Indian navy is falling rapidly behind both numerically and qualitatively behind a certain 'rival' that looks to secure her sea lanes going to the Middle East and beyond, all the way to the west coast of Africa.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Russians do build powerfully armed and very quiet submarines. Not as quiet as the Seawolf or Virginia class, but very quiet nonetheless.

I've always loved the hydrodynamic contours of the conning towers. My goodness, they are pretty boats no doubt.

But back to the Indian Navy
The Chakra (an Akula II) is the Indian Navy.

The next one, built to a similar standard, will also be "Indian Navy".

Outside of the Sea Wolf, Virginia, Yasen and Astute classes...there is no sub that can challenge them. They will present a very, very difficult challenge to any maritime nation wanting to transit the IO area.

my understanding is that they are far, far behind their own acquisition goals, whether it be submarines, frigates, or destroyers.
They have an operational carrier, with an operational airwing of Mig-29Ks. They have a strong nuclear attack submarine, a strong air defense DDG, and strong Shivilak and Talwar FFGs to defend her. They will soon have a second such carrier group...and will build their third.

ny78 said:
The Indian navy is falling rapidly behind both numerically and qualitatively behind a certain 'rival' that looks to secure her sea lanes going to the Middle East and beyond, all the way to the west coast of Africa.
I do not agree at all that they are falling "rapidly behind"

Not in the least IMHO.

In terms of a transit across the IO, any nation will have a difficult chore of forcing their way past the Indian Navy and Naval Air Arm, and their Air Force even now. The Vikramaditya and the coming Vikrant are not qualitatively behind. The Shivalik, Talwar and Kolkata vessels are also not outclassed in any major way qualitatively if it came to a confrontation in the IO. The Akula SSNs are arguably ahead of any other maritime power outside the US, Russia and the UK, and even they would have to be wary of them.

These conditions will only grow in the years to come as the Indians add their third carrier, the Bravo Kolkatas, and their new ASW FFGs, as well as field their own SSNs in some numbers probably starting in the 2020s. I would not cavalierly dismiss them in the least and I can tell you the planners of all of the nations we have mentioned, as well as those we have not, are not doing so.
 

by78

General
The Chakra (an Akula II) is the Indian Navy.

The next one, built to a similar standard, will also be "Indian Navy".

Outside of the Sea Wolf, Virginia, Yasen and Astute classes...there is no sub that can challenge them. They will present a very, very difficult challenge to any maritime nation wanting to transit the IO area.

Regarding the Akula, it's a lease to familiarize Indian Navy with operating nuclear submarines. It's partially manned by Russian instructors. The term of the lease, from what I understand, is that there are constraints on how it may be used. It cannot be considered a fully Indian naval asset. India has not purchased them but only reserves the option to do so once the lease expires.


They have an operational carrier, with an operational airwing of Mig-29Ks. They have a strong nuclear attack submarine, a strong air defense DDG, and strong Shivilak and Talwar FFGs to defend her. They will soon have a second such carrier group...and will build their third.

I do not agree at all that they are falling "rapidly behind"

Not in the least IMHO.

The carrier, as with any military asset, must be measured against the capabilities of potential opponents. A Nimitz might be formidable against Iran or Syria, but when going against a technologically advanced foe, it becomes more of a liability, having neither the number of planes necessary to secure air superiority nor the defenses necessary to deflect harm. Naturally, geographical advantages play a large part when India has her carriers prowling her backyard, but these ships are by no means difficult to target or sink. All carriers in this day and age are exceptionally vulnerable, provided the opponents have the technological means. India's carriers are far less potent, once we look past the symbolic aura of having a 'carrier'.


In terms of a transit across the IO, any nation will have a difficult chore of forcing their way past the Indian Navy and Naval Air Arm, and their Air Force even now. The Vikramaditya and the coming Vikrant are not qualitatively behind. The Shivalik, Talwar and Kolkata vessels are also not outclassed in any major way qualitatively if it came to a confrontation in the IO. The Akula SSNs are arguably ahead of any other maritime power outside the US, Russia and the UK, and even they would have to be wary of them.

These conditions will only grow in the years to come as the Indians add their third carrier, the Bravo Kolkatas, and their new ASW FFGs, as well as field their own SSNs in some numbers probably starting in the 2020s. I would not cavalierly dismiss them in the least and I can tell you the planners of all of the nations we have mentioned, as well as those we have not, are not doing so.

Yes Jeff, I agree India's geographic proximity to the vital sea lanes counts as a large advantage. That said, India's ability to patrol and monitor her near seas remains limited, not the least because she has fallen far behind her own acquisition goals and therefore lacked the necessary assets. Moreover, should the Chinese decide to set up basing agreements with countries around the Indian Ocean, India's geographic advantage will be severely reduced. This is not to say that China's military bases would be set up with India in mind, for China doesn't appear to consider India a military or strategic threat.

In the next twenty years, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that China would have naval and airbases dotted around the Indian Ocean, much as we do today. It's a natural progression as China's growing commercial ties with that part of the world necessitate the need to protect her commercial interests. The U.S. navy, if we are not bankrupt by then, cannot be trusted to do the job.

Jeff, I have no doubt that India will add new pieces to her navy in the coming years, but you should take India's projected acquisitions with a huge grain of salt. India has always over-promised and under-delivered by a wide, wide margin. The lead ship of P15A was supposed to see service in 2007, and we all know what actually transpired. These kinds of costly delays are the norm, Jeff, and almost never the exception. I'd hold off on predicting what units will be added to the Indian Navy until they are actually added. Meanwhile, a certain 'rival' up North are not having the same acquisition problems. The trend lines have been very clear for some time now, and it's not about to end any time soon.

And we haven't even touched on how India's lack of indigenous weapons industry severely holds her back strategically. One simply cannot build a strong military on imported hardware, self-evidently.
 
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