training exercise HK Oct 2012-combined force

Is that it? They went to the street yelling and protesting over this stuff? Judging from the news, I was expecting seeing page and pages of Mao's Red Book or something, I am not impressed.

Talk about overreaction.

Do you seriously expect to see Mao's Red Book for HK? The materials within are not as extreme as you had predicted, but nonetheless it doesn't detract the legitimacy of the concerns. HK doesn't prefer to be taught HOW to love the national anthem, or given materials that had the intention of approaching an issue one-sided and to think and feel a certain way. We prefer to evaluate everything on our own, and given this premise, the materials proven indeed do strike our concerns. We had our ways and approaches to the issues, so it's very laughable that suddenly textbooks are teaching students to supposed to feel "proud" when the anthem is played. For all objectivity, the city's main sentiments had been functioning on its own and always been so for these hundred years. This is the norm of the society, and to suddenly change all of that is really a question of whether it's necessary. It's not even like how HK's sentiments will have any immediate impact on national security. It's not like we have an issue of throwing tomatoes at the national flag. We just criticize the government as we please and it's part of the freedom of speech. Those who screams for secessions are idiots, and no one even pay real attention to them. I have stated our primary concerns already, and if you love to argue otherwise, I will let you do anything you want. I will just respect your comfortable world where everything China does is correct, and any oppositions must be considered anti-Chinese bias and prejudice.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
Too well said man. Even though as regular member of this forum, I do find this as one of the criticisms I will place towards this forum too. And the other thing is some of the pro-Chinese bias. They seem to support China too much when in fact there really are problems.

People protesting about HK is all too often and a regular thing, but I don't get how that's supposed to equate a Cantonese empire. HKers' protests in regards to China are usually towards things which disrupts our way of life, from Article 23 which suffocate HK's democratic rights(freedom of speech and freedom of assembly) to Nationalistic Education to surges of mainland Chinese pregnants crossing their borders intentionally JUST TO give birth in HK SO they have access to benefits. The results led to a jump from 20,000 annual birth rates(of this population coming from China) delivered in HK shot up to 74,000 in a few years' time, leading to HK hospitals unable to provide sufficient wards for HK's very own citizens because that population flooded our hospitals. Going further: mannerisms of many of them are terrible. They cut in lines, scream back at you when you tell them to line up, eat inside the train when rules forbid, take a piss or a leak inside a garbage can, spit everywhere..basically causing a disruptive nuisance to our culture and lifestyle. Entering HK, they should respect our cultures as this is the same as you respect the host's rules when you pay someone a visit. It was never Mandarin-speakers that we minded, but rather the actions of the groups which started flooding HK post-handover which cause us so much distress. We protest because we feared as the years go on, HK's culture, identities, would be eroded by the dilution as more mainland Chinese enters HK. Dilution isn't a problem when everyone can get along fine and well together and work together and the differences are appreciated, as in essences should make the society more open and stronger, but what it doing now is splitting the society up in a bad way.
For all of these, they are concerns shared by HKers of all walks and social classes, and DEFINITELY NOT by some "upper class". Actually it's the HK's professionals and middle classes who are severely concerned. The few random idiots who threw the Union Jack were exceptions and doesn't represent anyone. Even many of those with Western passports or received education in the West would not consider ourselves upper class.

Finally, I'm from HK and lived there in the early years before going to Canada. My mom's side went to HK from China a long time ago. In that technical aspect, they were mainland Chinese too. So what's the issue? The earlier generations who went to HK were honest and hardworking. Some smuggled their way into HK and started their life. Things were great back then. There had never been discrimination just simply because of their political identity. It's the post-handover generations which brings with them all these troubles which gives us issues, and it's those who bring with them THEIR mannerisms and troubles which cause us distress who we have issues with.


What Hong Kong culture are talking about? I'm sorry but do you eat your chopsticks in such a way that makes you different? You only wanting to be different for difference sake. You uppity attitude is what concerns me. Anything coming from the mainland is bad and their numbers will dilute our population as they will take away all of our precious Hong Kong women. Get over yourself dude, a Chinese is a Chinese regardless of what ethic groups they came from in the mainland. I don't care how you see them, but I see them as brothers and sisters who are poor but proud and build China to where it is now with literally their backs and you're complaining about some mainlander pregnant mommies are taking advantage of the benefits by having babies in HK, China? You talk about getting along, but it seems to me that you are the one who's not getting along with your fellow Chinese. What is so unique and important that this lame so called HK identity that needs to be protected at all cost? Do you see Jacky Chan advocating for the protection of Hong Kong "identity"?
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Do you seriously expect to see Mao's Red Book for HK? The materials within are not as extreme as you had predicted, but nonetheless it doesn't detract the legitimacy of the concerns. HK doesn't prefer to be taught HOW to love the national anthem, or given materials that had the intention of approaching an issue one-sided and to think and feel a certain way. We prefer to evaluate everything on our own, and given this premise, the materials proven indeed do strike our concerns. We had our ways and approaches to the issues, so it's very laughable that suddenly textbooks are teaching students to supposed to feel "proud" when the anthem is played. For all objectivity, the city's main sentiments had been functioning on its own and always been so for these hundred years. This is the norm of the society, and to suddenly change all of that is really a question of whether it's necessary. It's not even like how HK's sentiments will have any immediate impact on national security. It's not like we have an issue of throwing tomatoes at the national flag. We just criticize the government as we please and it's part of the freedom of speech. Those who screams for secessions are idiots, and no one even pay real attention to them. I have stated our primary concerns already, and if you love to argue otherwise, I will let you do anything you want. I will just respect your comfortable world where everything China does is correct, and any oppositions must be considered anti-Chinese bias and prejudice.

LOL are you serious? Where do you get the impression that I think "Everything China does is correct"? It is just that after all the reporting of protesting on the street, where people raise the British Flag, chanting down with the CCP etc... I just expected the material to be... A LOT more worse than what you are showing me. This is not that far off than what I was taught in US middle school and high school. You know? The greatest country on earth, freedom, democracy, star and stripes, heroes/sacrifices/lessons of the Revolutionary/Spanish American/civil/WW1/WW2 wars. Love your country, cherish democracy, cherish freedom, triumph over evil, god bless America, singing the national anthem during mandatory assembly at gym... and all that crap.

But seriously... I really really expected more from those materials that almost caused a riot. I'm not going to break down the psychology of the HKer, but all I can say here in LA, we have a HUGE Chinese community, and out of all Chinese, the HK community have the most snobbishness, I don't know why, but they really look down on none-HKers here at school, at work they all have their own little circle. I mean... I am not bothered by that, but it is kinda sad, we are all minorities in this nation, but why do you have to divide it up even more? Just because you are rich does not give you the right to feel superior. Maybe it is this sense of superiority that make them to overreact so much to everything China is trying to do in HK.

I mean seriously man.
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How is this news? Why do people protest when Chinese officials go pay their respect for HK people that have suffered? I mean what is wrong with one group of Chinese people caring for another group of Chinese people that suffered? It is just this kind of mentality that make me facepalm for people of HK.
 

JsCh

Junior Member
Fair words within. When I first watched that video, I disagree with the quote "that's how those mainlanders are" because it's racist and ignorant. My mom say that often, so I totally recognize the issues with that sentence. As for how it started, it began when someone tried to politely tell the mother that her children shouldn't be eating inside the train. The result was the mother's remarks which kicked the ball off.

As for HK-China, one thing you've mistaken is that with things like Article 23 and Nationalistic Education, we don't see the CCP as that sincere aside from being sincere in trying to control us. Why are they attempting to limit our freedom of speech and instill patriotism within our society? HK's patriotism is more rational because we observe from many factors and had been without any foreign influence. We take pride from the Chinese language, heritage, history, defend Diaoyu as a Chinese, donate to Sichuan because we're Chinese, support Beijing Olympics..but will criticize CCP when it deserves it. Of course I ain't saying we're the best because we still have many flaws, but our version doesn't require hating on Japan in mass protests in the same way it occurred in China, and we don't sing about how much we love the motherland. This is why we are deeply insulted and repulsed by Nationalistic Education.

I really don't think upper class have anything to do with all this because all the sentiments occur from people's daily interaction. Furthermore, while I admit there's probably some HK ego as a factor into seeing mainland Chinese, overall the major complaints were all mentioned as previously. Regardless, I feel mainland Chinese in HK should work to improve what we criticize them off. When what we accuse them of are no longer factual, it's HK's turn to change.
Both Article 23 and Nationalistic education are all normal aspect of modern society. They are not the exception but the norm.
There is deep distrust of CCP by the HKer. I remember all the doomsday predictions before 1997 handover. 15 years has gone by, has any of the accusations that were piled on CCP turned out to be true? Has it ever occur to the HKer that maybe the vilified caricature CCP may not be the full picture?
Another way of looking at it is of course that Chinese government does not trust HKer as well. But bear in mind that national security law and nationalistic education is a normal aspect of any government. Almost all government on the surface of this earth have something similar, they were there for good reason. It is way too simplistic to characterize them as “trying to control”. From CCP point of view, what they are asking is the very basic.
A stable and prosperous HK is to the interest of both China and HK. There is no reason that CCP want to jeopardize HK. Differences in opinion could be work out in an orderly and consultative manner. But that does not seem to be possible with HK, we have this impression of everything being a political struggle, hurl in uncompromising rhetorical emotional mess.
Something that HKer has to accept is that HK belongs to China. You are now in a big family. We all have to work together to safe guard the interest of China. You are the lucky one but you cannot have everything your way, you have to make sacrifice to contribute to the whole just like everybody else. You have to expand you world view to include China, not just HK.
China made a promise of “50年不变” and has for the last 15 years delivered it. It is unreasonable for some HK politician to be nitpicking, assume the worst interpretation and make an uncompromising stand. It is disingenuous and reeks of political manipulation. HKer should be mature enough to see through it.
Both side have to work together to be less divisive. Just like what you have said, once the phrase “that's how those mainlanders are” is uttered, it immediately become “me against the other side” situation. And a trivial incident brought out the worst and ugliest extremist and becomes an unfortunate sore point on the psyche of both sides.
At the end of the day, it boils down to what are the motive of CCP in Article 23 and nationalistic education?
HKer wants to keep their independence without any interference from China. The big question is whether that is attainable?
CCP feels that HK has to be more integrated into China. HKer does not seem to see the danger of discordance. But for CCP, stability, goodwill and harmony is paramount to the future of HK. The way they go about doing it may seem ridiculous to HKer, but it is in the best interest of both sides.
Disagreement on Article 23, nationalistic education, and friction in mannerism do not seem to be that big a deal. Judging by how emotional both sides displayed, one have to say there is something deeper at play here. Maybe both sides have this over generalized view of the other side? Both sides are not happy with the other side? The mainlander felt that HKer are not pulling its weight? And the HKer felt that China is too much of a control freak?
 
What Hong Kong culture are talking about? I'm sorry but do you eat your chopsticks in such a way that makes you different? You only wanting to be different for difference sake. You uppity attitude is what concerns me. Anything coming from the mainland is bad and their numbers will dilute our population as they will take away all of our precious Hong Kong women. Get over yourself dude, a Chinese is a Chinese regardless of what ethic groups they came from in the mainland. I don't care how you see them, but I see them as brothers and sisters who are poor but proud and build China to where it is now with literally their backs and you're complaining about some mainlander pregnant mommies are taking advantage of the benefits by having babies in HK, China? You talk about getting along, but it seems to me that you are the one who's not getting along with your fellow Chinese. What is so unique and important that this lame so called HK identity that needs to be protected at all cost? Do you see Jacky Chan advocating for the protection of Hong Kong "identity"?

Ignorance.

Culture = a society's norms. Every society, from organizations to religion to ethnic, are various types of cultures of its own. Don't believe me? Go take Sociology 101. I even learned this in high school

HK woman? More and more mainland Chinese immigrate to HK, while some immigrate there to give births, which allow them access to HK citizenship. That in itself, increases the registered populations, as well as the population of immigrants in HK. Stealing HK woman? More HK men are marrying mainland Chinese women


Just because you don't know something or disagree doesn't mean it isn't there. The culture and societies in HK have its own thinking. Since you failed to open your mind and heart to accept new ideas, you can also keep thinking the way you do. Your very reaction is nothing but the prototype behaviour of anti-Chinese bashers, except this time you must defend China's decisions and your bashing is towards HK.
Get over yourself and your bias.

Chinese is a label like as is Japanese. There are Osakan Japanese, Tokyo Japanese, Ainus, Okinawans, Kyoto, Hokkaido..various regions, prefectures, with distinctiveness. They share similarities but also distinctiveness. So it's the same as regional Chinese...Han, Chu, Fujianese, Manchu, Shanghai, Canton, HK, Shandong.. even HK and Shenzhen speaks differently. As much as you're right that they're the same, you are also failing to appreciate and observe their diversity and difference. Is it even so hard to grasp that Texans are different from New Yorkers?

Next up, I find it incredibly pathetic how you can dismiss HK's concerns into consideration, which showed your inconsiderate attitude and an attempt to enforce them to "suck it up and accept it" without even attempting to understand from their shoes. I've tried to share it with you, but you ignored it and won't even put it into considerations. If you want to learn to work things out, the first thing is to understand the positions from the other person. But nope you won't even attempt. Before you accuse me, I assure you, you won't even get past preliminary stages of solving conflicts because you don't even attempt to others seriously. Such a fail attitude.

HK is in a different political system where social benefits and welfare are given to HK citizens. When HK Government was about to distribute $6000 to every HK citizens, newly immigrated citizens from mainland China, who's been citizens for less than a few months, cried they should have the right or else it's discrimination. As a result, they are get a share. What ended up happening was many of them explicitly stated they came to HK just to leech off the benefits. They don't understand or know to respect the purposes and meanings of these benefits, as they don't know how to respect the cultural norms such as no peeing on MTR platforms. This is why we are upset with them. The actions of these very few spell a terrible name for mainland Chinese because people's natural stereotype is that this is how mainland Chinese are like when they are in HK. Since not everyone understands prejudice and stereotypes are bad, dislikes towards mainland China increased. It's not right, but that's how causes are. On the other hand, you attempted 2 irrelevant propositions of tying "brothers and sisters" with "complaining pregnant moms". I don't see how that's even a legitimate argument. The most you're doing is telling me "because they're Chinese, you shouldn't be complaining". Some really pathetic and weak attempt at Begging the Question.

I want to be different? Ridiculous HK identity? I have taken an entire course on social identity theories and social psychology, which I apply with my studies of international relations. And the fact you call it ridiculous showed how much disrespect you have. Someone who doesn't even know how to respect should learn that first before coming in attempting to be a judge.

Us getting along? Mainland Chinese coming into HK should observe our rules of law and cultures. It's called respect. When one's acts interferes with the rights of others, such action should stop. Mainland Chinese entering HK should demonstrate respect because they are in an area under our separate political jurisdiction. Vice versa goes for HK people in China.

And it's so pathetic how you say we don't attempt to get along with you guys. Yea yea yea it's all about you guys again. Sinocentric? Egocentric? Ethnocentric? Get over yourself. You don't know respect, tolerance, and observing others' attitude, and you're telling us to get along with you guys? You are equivalent of saying the forum should learn to get along with trolls.

Your actions are equivalent of the attitude the US have towards China, saying they don't attempt to get along with the West. Seriously, same logic, just simply [insert nouns], and the sentence is exactly the same.

I even wonder how you come to the conclusion I don't get along with fellow Chinese. I respect people here equally as I respect them in real life; I offer people a benefit of a doubt for their behavior unless it's excessively across the line.

The world works on a very important rule: Learn to respect what you're getting yourselves involved with. If you're talking about HK, you need to understand HK. If you want to understand China or US, you need to understand China or US. Without understanding, you have nothing to build on. And this is you, failing that. You don't even attempt to respect HK and the differences and what makes HK what it is, so you don't really have much grounds to talk, no offense.

Your last paragraph..complete ignorance. You can't even learn to appreciate diversities and identities, which shows you have no respect towards others but your own. And that shouldn't earn anyone's respect.
 
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LOL are you serious? Where do you get the impression that I think "Everything China does is correct"? It is just that after all the reporting of protesting on the street, where people raise the British Flag, chanting down with the CCP etc... I just expected the material to be... A LOT more worse than what you are showing me. This is not that far off than what I was taught in US middle school and high school. You know? The greatest country on earth, freedom, democracy, star and stripes, heroes/sacrifices/lessons of the Revolutionary/Spanish American/civil/WW1/WW2 wars. Love your country, cherish democracy, cherish freedom, triumph over evil, god bless America, singing the national anthem during mandatory assembly at gym... and all that crap.

But seriously... I really really expected more from those materials that almost caused a riot. I'm not going to break down the psychology of the HKer, but all I can say here in LA, we have a HUGE Chinese community, and out of all Chinese, the HK community have the most snobbishness, I don't know why, but they really look down on none-HKers here at school, at work they all have their own little circle. I mean... I am not bothered by that, but it is kinda sad, we are all minorities in this nation, but why do you have to divide it up even more? Just because you are rich does not give you the right to feel superior. Maybe it is this sense of superiority that make them to overreact so much to everything China is trying to do in HK.

I mean seriously man.
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How is this news? Why do people protest when Chinese officials go pay their respect for HK people that have suffered? I mean what is wrong with one group of Chinese people caring for another group of Chinese people that suffered? It is just this kind of mentality that make me facepalm for people of HK.

I'm sorry if that's what you experienced. Vancouver has as large a population base of Asians, and we get along with everyone just fine. I admit there are some bad apples from HK as there are with bad apples from China as well.
While I seem to hold a pro-HK side here, when I'm in a HK forum I will criticize others for being bias and anti-China. So what you've said I understand what you mean. Growing up in Canada, I also understand what it perhaps might be like in the US. The differences of what I think is rational and irrational is to understand why the values are important, when they can be applied, applied to whom, and all the while continue to respect differences and when they can't be applied. Enforcing one's thought without understanding the situation will only cause negative feedback.

As for that incident, I didn't hear why they went all apeshit over it, but I do disagree with what occurs in HK a lot of times too.

I also agree that we should get along, not fight amongst ourselves. For that record, if you ever get to know me in person, I actually tell my Asian friends, especially those from Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, about how it's important we band together because we are under the household name called Asians, and it's something we should learn to work out. Even my future career path is towards Asian Integration(all in all I'm a pan-Asianist), so all in all, my criticism definitely do not come out of hate; I criticize everyone for what they're wrong for, regardless of where they're from. I will just be a bit harder towards China because there's a lot more for China at stake and in order to achieve as a future great power we all envision it to be. The higher beam you put your targets to, the more you can make it achieve, and I really do want China to be one of the few nations to become powerful yet civil(US is not perfect unfortunately.) Some people once asked me how long it takes China to be 1st world and goodie and all, and I said "60years." And for a little bragging record, I'm dating a Korean recently, and there's this Korean guy who praised us Chinese and those from HK for being serious to their gfs. Some of my other Korean and Japanese friends would also be able to get along with me because my goal is to cross boundaries and make the links between different groups. Same occurred when I was in Chengdu; I wasn't the snobbish type, as I attempt to carry a good impression for being HK-Canadian. When I was in the UN the same had happened. Overall bragging aside, I feel each of my action definitely help people change stereotypes, and I want who I am to help last a good impression for the groups I represent. Regardless, I grew up with my teachers telling us "we represent our school", and I certainly believe we represent our race, so I've been proud of how I am up to this date in being courteous and doing the right thing because I carry 3 identities with my actions: Chinese, HK, Canadian(no particular order).

When I criticize the Japanese, I criticize the government and its impotence. Not too much I can say about Korea, China for what it deserves and the anti-Japanese racisms, Taiwan and HK for anti-China sentiments.

As for Nationalistic Education, if you do recall, I did mention some of the stuffs up there are exaggerated., but again there are some aspects that also do speak deep into HK's fears, mistrusts of China, and things we are concerned. For all objectiveness, I never disagreed with you from the start; I just also acknowledge some bits are legit and some aren't.
 
Both Article 23 and Nationalistic education are all normal aspect of modern society. They are not the exception but the norm.
There is deep distrust of CCP by the HKer. I remember all the doomsday predictions before 1997 handover. 15 years has gone by, has any of the accusations that were piled on CCP turned out to be true? Has it ever occur to the HKer that maybe the vilified caricature CCP may not be the full picture?
Another way of looking at it is of course that Chinese government does not trust HKer as well. But bear in mind that national security law and nationalistic education is a normal aspect of any government. Almost all government on the surface of this earth have something similar, they were there for good reason. It is way too simplistic to characterize them as “trying to control”. From CCP point of view, what they are asking is the very basic.
A stable and prosperous HK is to the interest of both China and HK. There is no reason that CCP want to jeopardize HK. Differences in opinion could be work out in an orderly and consultative manner. But that does not seem to be possible with HK, we have this impression of everything being a political struggle, hurl in uncompromising rhetorical emotional mess.
Something that HKer has to accept is that HK belongs to China. You are now in a big family. We all have to work together to safe guard the interest of China. You are the lucky one but you cannot have everything your way, you have to make sacrifice to contribute to the whole just like everybody else. You have to expand you world view to include China, not just HK.
China made a promise of “50年不变” and has for the last 15 years delivered it. It is unreasonable for some HK politician to be nitpicking, assume the worst interpretation and make an uncompromising stand. It is disingenuous and reeks of political manipulation. HKer should be mature enough to see through it.
Both side have to work together to be less divisive. Just like what you have said, once the phrase “that's how those mainlanders are” is uttered, it immediately become “me against the other side” situation. And a trivial incident brought out the worst and ugliest extremist and becomes an unfortunate sore point on the psyche of both sides.
At the end of the day, it boils down to what are the motive of CCP in Article 23 and nationalistic education?
HKer wants to keep their independence without any interference from China. The big question is whether that is attainable?
CCP feels that HK has to be more integrated into China. HKer does not seem to see the danger of discordance. But for CCP, stability, goodwill and harmony is paramount to the future of HK. The way they go about doing it may seem ridiculous to HKer, but it is in the best interest of both sides.
Disagreement on Article 23, nationalistic education, and friction in mannerism do not seem to be that big a deal. Judging by how emotional both sides displayed, one have to say there is something deeper at play here. Maybe both sides have this over generalized view of the other side? Both sides are not happy with the other side? The mainlander felt that HKer are not pulling its weight? And the HKer felt that China is too much of a control freak?

Very neutral, objective, and good analysis. I very agree with you. I do not detest China. Instead my views are pro-China(early forum days) to neutral to critical towards China(current). While I do carry some bias for sure, I attribute to China fairly for what it's done right and wrong, and I try hard to be a tough yet fair critic of China because I try to maintain a down to earth view of China.

Speaking of '97, one must understand Tiananmen Massacre was what destroyed China's image the most. If HK had a better view towards China beforehand, which is not so much, June 4th really destroyed anything that's left. Before June 4th, Cultural Revolutions also burned deep because many escaped to HK, so essentially the biggest divergence I reckon, would start from those times. My parents brought us to Vancouver in '94 cause of those fears. Although '97 happened without bloodshed, still there are new problems that are being (un)fairly attributed as being caused from China.

I also admit there's a huge mistrust within people from both straits. For honesty I can see China attempting to reconcile with HK, but we do just prefer to be left alone. It's not good, but definitely negative events in HK that's being associated with China will not help. If China really wants to work things out, I suggest leaving the problem. I very admit there's a strong element of HK superiority over China, and I do not agree with this, but this is a very common phenomenon in social psychology. Ingroups will attempt to see itself a superior, especially when they have legitimate grounds. Such phenomenon occurs everywhere, particularly cities where there's a bigger minority group or strong in immigration. Such xenophobia are common, and often the only way is to increase cooperation and working together and looking for similarities without dismissing diversity. This is because each group sees their own social identity as important, so trying to dismiss it(assimilation) will cause a backlash.

Finally, HK's biggest mistrust, as with Taiwan's biggest mistrusts, would be China's intentions. We/They always feared China will pull off "China political suppression" towards their societies, hence the mistrust. Article 23 and Nationalistic Education thus received such impressions as attempts. One is seen as attempt to suppress freedom of speech, while the other is seen as brainwash. Honestly, Beijing shouldn't have to ever worry HK going rogue..my best picture to paint this is HK is equivalent of the kid who's got his own room and his own world and his way of doing things and doesn't like all that jazz the the rest of the family is pulling off. However when sh!t happens he'll still be part of the family, and still identify self as Chinese. Let's consider the fundraising for Sichuan Earthquake and the support for Beijing Olympics. HK doesn't need to be taught how to love. One crucial aspect, I'd show you, is the examples of differences, and why these cause distastes. (Let's not forget these differences are also values):
Things I highlight are minor. Italicized will be more serious, with bold being the worst. What I place in the middle doesn't affect too much


HK-------------------------------------------------------------------------------China
Rule of law, World Ranking for Least Corruption #12, ICAC----------------Corruption
Traditional ----------------------------------------------------------------------Simplified
Freedom of Speech and Assembly----------------------------------------Censorship
Respect for intellectual property and ethic business practice------------------Quality issues and tainted milk powder
-------------------------------------------Orderly mannerisms
-------------------------------------------------HKD ---RMB
---------------------------------------------------Education
-------------------------------------------------Local Cultures

My point from this illustration isn't to say HK is better. These are some major differences we are associated with. I won't get into similarities because I can go on forever.

I'm not saying HK's behavior is right, but HK has its own identity, and that the most ultimate way for China and both sides to fix things is to recognize the differences and then learn how to soothe around the sensitive edges and find more common grounds. Working in from common grounds is the best way to start things. And China will have more to do.

And one area that China had done well in HK is the PLA garrison..which generally didn't disturb HK's civilian lifestyles. These things actually can help improve China's image in the long run. It's just that they need to reduce interference in local affairs even more, and pro-Beijing parties can sometimes be an issue if they are seen to be speaking for China.

If anything, China can attempt to garner more support from HK by supporting some of HK's decisions, including direct elections, heed HK people's complaints, and establish a more direct access of communication paths.
 
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MwRYum

Major
If anything, China can attempt to garner more support from HK by supporting some of HK's decisions, including direct elections, heed HK people's complaints, and establish a more direct access of communication paths.

But you should know how difficult that can be. The significance of HK has waned when the exchange rate of RMB overtake HKD, even today other mainland cities and provinces have long voiced discontent to how much Beijing's giving HK leeway despite the world has changed long against HK's favor. Giving in that much to HK without some tangible returns? Central governance model means there's a strict hierachy between the local and cental government bodies, and now what HK demands elevates to an almost equal to central government, think about what'd the other cities and provinces think and demand in return?

Obviously HK people never give any thought about that, and instead dreaming for the kind of loose governance model the west adopted, or they simply refuse to ponder the "trade", what price they've to pay. Central government have stated time and again it'd not tolerate separatism, and the kind of things HK people doing now, despite their denial (or they just backtrack when the unusual hard words comes from Beijing leaders) their message is separatism to Beijing's ears. That's where things get dicy.

In the end, HK people have to decide what and how to trade with Beijing, not necessary "giving up and join the droolers", but something to ease Beijing's mind, that HK isn't really waltzing on the tune of separatism, maybe offer those few idiots who do to the chopping block from time to time...?

As long as Beijing still firmly believe it's getting its money's worth, HK can go still go by its own tunes.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
When you talk about value and identity, of course I agree Chia is not this homogenous eneity where everyone have the exact some background, I mean heck I read a report that over half of the 1.3 billion people right now cannot speak proper Mandarin in China. You have Shanghai identity, Shenyang identity Shandon identity, HK identified etc... basically you can see all of Chinese have their regional identities. But what holds us together is the common identity of being Chinese. So I think when HK people protests just about EVERYTHING that the mainland does, they really upset a lot of people. I am sure the CCP does not want to wash away HK identity as they feel the need to wash away Shanghai identity, nor it is in their best interest to do so, but when every time HK people criticize mainland for every little thing they do, they are not doing themselves a favor acting this way, and they are not making a good reputation in Beijing. The number one concern of Chinese government is holding the nation together at all costs, that's why you see there were more cops than protesters in the so call Jasmine revolution gather locations, that's why you see the anti-secession laws. They are not being passed so they can supress or kill people, they are being used to confirm thier standce on how serious they view the situation.

As for Main lander not respecting HK value and custom such as peeing on the train talk loud etc... I can tell you this, this is NOT Chinese custom as well, this is custom of uneducated people, it speaks more about that person's own background rather than representing a people as a whole. Because as far as I know, there is no culture on earth values the value of peeing on trains carts. And lastly I don't have the statistic on how often this happens, I myself travel to China a lot and I got to tell you, so far, I have not see one person peeing on the train or bus. I do however see a lot of behavior cutting in the line and talking loudly, but I don't see them as representing Chinese culture, it speaks more of that person's self-quality itself, and of course being poor for the rest of their life and only recently got some doh will make people tend to act that way, that's why I heard that a lot of self respecting high cultured Chinese does not buy Mercedes anymore, because their imagine has been trashed by a lot of former poor farmer that exploded in wealth in recent years.

As for giving babies in HK to receive benefit, again... this is not Chinese value or some kind of action that was done on purpose to disrespect HK value, this is simply for a person to have done a economic calculation, and realize it is in their FINANCIAL best interest to have children in HK to receive the benefit. This is EXACTLY like so many illegal Mexican giving birth in US to receive US citizenship. I don't support this action, but I don't attributed this action of being Main lander either, and if HK government decide to crack down on this behavior I support it.

What I don't support is politicized this behavior to look down upon a whole class of people. Behavior such as peeing in public , talking loud and attribute them to the people of "mainland" of seeing them as some kind of uncivilized barbarians. Because deep down we are all the same people, only difference is one group is much more richer than the other. But no matter how rich you are, it does not change your blood
 
Ignorance.

Culture = a society's norms. Every society, from organizations to religion to ethnic, are various types of cultures of its own. Don't believe me? Go take Sociology 101. I even learned this in high school

HK woman? More and more mainland Chinese immigrate to HK, while some immigrate there to give births, which allow them access to HK citizenship. That in itself, increases the registered populations, as well as the population of immigrants in HK. Stealing HK woman? More HK men are marrying mainland Chinese women


Just because you don't know something or disagree doesn't mean it isn't there. The culture and societies in HK have its own thinking. Since you failed to open your mind and heart to accept new ideas, you can also keep thinking the way you do. Your very reaction is nothing but the prototype behaviour of anti-Chinese bashers, except this time you must defend China's decisions and your bashing is towards HK.
Get over yourself and your bias.

Chinese is a label like as is Japanese. There are Osakan Japanese, Tokyo Japanese, Ainus, Okinawans, Kyoto, Hokkaido..various regions, prefectures, with distinctiveness. They share similarities but also distinctiveness. So it's the same as regional Chinese...Han, Chu, Fujianese, Manchu, Shanghai, Canton, HK, Shandong.. even HK and Shenzhen speaks differently. As much as you're right that they're the same, you are also failing to appreciate and observe their diversity and difference. Is it even so hard to grasp that Texans are different from New Yorkers?

Next up, I find it incredibly pathetic how you can dismiss HK's concerns into consideration, which showed your inconsiderate attitude and an attempt to enforce them to "suck it up and accept it" without even attempting to understand from their shoes. I've tried to share it with you, but you ignored it and won't even put it into considerations. If you want to learn to work things out, the first thing is to understand the positions from the other person. But nope you won't even attempt. Before you accuse me, I assure you, you won't even get past preliminary stages of solving conflicts because you don't even attempt to others seriously. Such a fail attitude.

HK is in a different political system where social benefits and welfare are given to HK citizens. When HK Government was about to distribute $6000 to every HK citizens, newly immigrated citizens from mainland China, who's been citizens for less than a few months, cried they should have the right or else it's discrimination. As a result, they are get a share. What ended up happening was many of them explicitly stated they came to HK just to leech off the benefits. They don't understand or know to respect the purposes and meanings of these benefits, as they don't know how to respect the cultural norms such as no peeing on MTR platforms. This is why we are upset with them. The actions of these very few spell a terrible name for mainland Chinese because people's natural stereotype is that this is how mainland Chinese are like when they are in HK. Since not everyone understands prejudice and stereotypes are bad, dislikes towards mainland China increased. It's not right, but that's how causes are. On the other hand, you attempted 2 irrelevant propositions of tying "brothers and sisters" with "complaining pregnant moms". I don't see how that's even a legitimate argument. The most you're doing is telling me "because they're Chinese, you shouldn't be complaining". Some really pathetic and weak attempt at Begging the Question.

I want to be different? Ridiculous HK identity? I have taken an entire course on social identity theories and social psychology, which I apply with my studies of international relations. And the fact you call it ridiculous showed how much disrespect you have. Someone who doesn't even know how to respect should learn that first before coming in attempting to be a judge.

Us getting along? Mainland Chinese coming into HK should observe our rules of law and cultures. It's called respect. When one's acts interferes with the rights of others, such action should stop. Mainland Chinese entering HK should demonstrate respect because they are in an area under our separate political jurisdiction. Vice versa goes for HK people in China.

And it's so pathetic how you say we don't attempt to get along with you guys. Yea yea yea it's all about you guys again. Sinocentric? Egocentric? Ethnocentric? Get over yourself. You don't know respect, tolerance, and observing others' attitude, and you're telling us to get along with you guys? You are equivalent of saying the forum should learn to get along with trolls.

Your actions are equivalent of the attitude the US have towards China, saying they don't attempt to get along with the West. Seriously, same logic, just simply [insert nouns], and the sentence is exactly the same.

I even wonder how you come to the conclusion I don't get along with fellow Chinese. I respect people here equally as I respect them in real life; I offer people a benefit of a doubt for their behavior unless it's excessively across the line.

The world works on a very important rule: Learn to respect what you're getting yourselves involved with. If you're talking about HK, you need to understand HK. If you want to understand China or US, you need to understand China or US. Without understanding, you have nothing to build on. And this is you, failing that. You don't even attempt to respect HK and the differences and what makes HK what it is, so you don't really have much grounds to talk, no offense.

Your last paragraph..complete ignorance. You can't even learn to appreciate diversities and identities, which shows you have no respect towards others but your own. And that shouldn't earn anyone's respect.


Overreaction right there dude.
 
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