Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yeah, no. North Korea's not some back-bench puppet. They've got their own playbook. They've gone ahead with nuclear tests despite China's advice, and post-2022 started vibing more with Russia. So this whole 'China could just snap its fingers and keep them poor and locked down' take? The priority here is avoiding a full collapse, dodging a war, stopping a nuclear domino effect in the region and preventing a potential refugee crisis across Yalu. Keeping north korea poor was never the goal, it's just an unfortunate side effect of the main mission: keeping the regime stable and the neighborhood from going up in flames. China is making the best of a bad hand.
I agree more with this post. Very rational point of view, its also my view actually. I'm not saying china is losing much in this actually. Its not chinas fault the kim dynasty has turned the way they are, afterall, china doesnt run the regime, the most china has could have done(which they did) was advice the regime to reform in some ways though when this young fat kim took power he got killed all the seemingly pro china elements in his regime(including his own uncle. Lol) to cement his power . If people think you can reason with such a person then i have a bridge to sell you. Lol
So it's the issue of North Koreans not chinas responsibility to be honest, afterall as far as China is concern as long as the regime is stable to avoid a refugee crisis on china's border and help act as a buffer to US forces in the south, then its a necessary burden to tolerate. Not much china can do.
 
I agree more with this post. Very rational point of view, its also my view actually. I'm not saying china is losing much in this actually. Its not chinas fault the kim dynasty has turned the way they are, afterall, china doesnt run the regime, the most china has could have done(which they did) was advice the regime to reform in some ways though when this young fat kim took power he got killed all the seemingly pro china elements in his regime(including his own uncle. Lol) to cement his power . If people think you can reason with such a person then i have a bridge to sell you. Lol
So it's the issue of North Koreans not chinas responsibility to be honest, afterall as far as China is concern as long as the regime is stable to avoid a refugee crisis on china's border and help act as a buffer to US forces in the south, then its a necessary burden to tolerate. Not much china can do.
Are you aware that SK and Taiwan were also once repressive military dictatorships? The economic transformation of those two places were only possible due to sustained planning and investment by authoritarian governments. What happened afterwards? It made those places more susceptible (both the people and the state) to foreign influence and the corrupting, corrosive spread of neo-liberal ideas, resulting in the overthrow of military rule. Do you think Kim wants that? And what happened after those two places adopted "liberal" governance? Accerlated increase in wealth inequality along with a decrease in net aggregate happiness. Even China experienced growing pains from economic reform and liberalization, which was only rung in by timely and wise party policies and why the focus of the CPC for the past decade has not been maximal economic growth but rather social harmony and quality of growth. Do you know in Iran, the government has around a 95% approval rating from the poorer classes? Only the upper middle class and a faction of the upper class elites support liberalization and alginment with the West.
 
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Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
Are you aware that SK and Taiwan were also once repressive military dictatorships? The economic transformation of those two places were only possible due to sustained planning and investment by authoritarian governments. What happened afterwards? It made those places more susceptible (both the people and the state) to foreign influence and the corrupting, corrosive spread of neo-liberal ideas, resulting in the overthrow of military rule. Do you think Kim wants that? And what happened after those two places adopted "liberal" governance? Accerlated increase in wealth inequality along with a decrease in net aggregate happiness. Even China experienced growing pains from economic reform and liberalization, which was only rung in by timely and wise party policies and why the focus of the CPC for the past decade has not been maximal economic growth but rather social harmony and quality of growth. Do you know in Iran, the government has around a 95% approval rating from the poorer classes? Only the upper middle class and a faction of the upper class elites support liberalization and alginment with the West.
Lol Your logic is very much flawed. So according to your logic because there are some risks some people might be influenced by opening up, attracting foreign direct investment and deep economic reforms then the country should just remain with the status quo? Is that how you see life in general or does this just apply to north Korea/Iran due to geopoltigal reasons which you think suits China?
Seriously, hearing views like this from a Chinese(of you are one) of all people is rather surprising .

Using your logic Deng xiaoping should have never reformed/opened up china(in fact many in the party/China were against this back then ) due to the risks it carried . He should have stuck to the status quo which was the easiest thing to do afterall, since it carried almost no risks. As we all know the easiest thing to do in life is to just remain where you are and not strive for change/more which is actually what vast majority of people in the world do to be honest. Only the very bold/visionaries are not okay with the status quo and strive for change/reforms/more . Luckily people with mentality like that are not in charge of china today(since 1979 anyway) else the country would have remained were it was decades ago(a situation where eveeybody is equally poor, and millions fleeing abroad for greener pastures. Lol). If anything Chinese leaders today are actually soléofnthe most boldest in reforms and change(which i know most people and even westerners will find puzzling/surprising). Chinese leaders constabtly experiment with change and different policies in small regions , those that worl they expand it tonthe country and those that doesnt work(doesnt matter whether its ideologically aligns with comunist socialist ideology or not) they discard it. The most recent example is the Hainan free trade region which is the latest opening up region with almost different laws and policies from the mainland. The whole island has become a free trade zone basically where any foreign company can easily set up shop with almost zero hassle, large broad zero-tariff policies, 15% corporate/personal tax caps, free movement of capital(which is something i wouldnt have thought china could do this lifetime in any region under the mainland), data, and personnel by 2025/2035. This are very deep reforms that go much liberal and deeper than even some western countries.

As i said before, only a fool will look at what his neighbour/friend is doing successfully for decades/years and still choose to maintain his current situation which has been a failure.
Like Deng Xuaoping(one of the leaders i admire the most and think is onenofnthe greatest/most consequential leaders of this past century) once said : " open door" policy is typically translated as: "When you open the window, both flies and air come in". So Open the windows, breathe the fresh air and at the same time fight the flies and insects lol.
He's right, you can't live your life being scared or risks. Else nobody will even invest or own a business . Lol , nobody will want to drive a car since there's a major risk you can have an accident or crash(it happens to many people. Lol ) etc etc. So that argument/logic is fallacious.
 
Lol Your logic is very much flawed. So according to your logic because there are some risks some people might be influenced by opening up, attracting foreign direct investment and deep economic reforms then the country should just remain with the status quo? Is that how you see life in general or does this just apply to north Korea/Iran due to geopoltigal reasons which you think suits China?
Seriously, hearing views like this from a Chinese(of you are one) of all people is rather surprising .

Using your logic Deng xiaoping should have never reformed/opened up china(in fact many in the party/China were against this back then ) due to the risks it carried . He should have stuck to the status quo which was the easiest thing to do afterall, since it carried almost no risks. As we all know the easiest thing to do in life is to just remain where you are and not strive for change/more which is actually what vast majority of people in the world do to be honest. Only the very bold/visionaries are not okay with the status quo and strive for change/reforms/more . Luckily people with mentality like that are not in charge of china today(since 1979 anyway) else the country would have remained were it was decades ago(a situation where eveeybody is equally poor, and millions fleeing abroad for greener pastures. Lol). If anything Chinese leaders today are actually soléofnthe most boldest in reforms and change(which i know most people and even westerners will find puzzling/surprising). Chinese leaders constabtly experiment with change and different policies in small regions , those that worl they expand it tonthe country and those that doesnt work(doesnt matter whether its ideologically aligns with comunist socialist ideology or not) they discard it. The most recent example is the Hainan free trade region which is the latest opening up region with almost different laws and policies from the mainland. The whole island has become a free trade zone basically where any foreign company can easily set up shop with almost zero hassle, large broad zero-tariff policies, 15% corporate/personal tax caps, free movement of capital(which is something i wouldnt have thought china could do this lifetime in any region under the mainland), data, and personnel by 2025/2035. This are very deep reforms that go much liberal and deeper than even some western countries.

As i said before, only a fool will look at what his neighbour/friend is doing successfully for decades/years and still choose to maintain his current situation which has been a failure.
Like Deng Xuaoping(one of the leaders i admire the most and think is onenofnthe greatest/most consequential leaders of this past century) once said : " open door" policy is typically translated as: "When you open the window, both flies and air come in". So Open the windows, breathe the fresh air and at the same time fight the flies and insects lol.
He's right, you can't live your life being scared or risks. Else nobody will even invest or own a business . Lol , nobody will want to drive a car since there's a major risk you can have an accident or crash(it happens to many people. Lol ) etc etc. So that argument/logic is fallacious.
If at this point you still cannot grasp the difference between China and smaller countries/places (ie the two Koreas, Taiwan, Vietnam), then it is no use trying to explain any further, as the prerequisite core cognitive capabilities are not present.
 

Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
If at this point you still cannot grasp the difference between China and smaller countries/places (ie the two Koreas, Taiwan, Vietnam), then it is no use trying to explain any further, as the prerequisite core cognitive capabilities are not present.
The smaller place Vietnam actually disproved your logic, since they have been following chinas lead very sucessfully. Lol north Korea is an outlier in this aspect in Asia actually not the norm.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
The smaller place Vietnam actually disproved your logic
What'd it say? I can't hear up here. Have it get up from its knees then talk.
, since they have been following chinas lead very sucessfully. Lol north Korea is an outlier in this aspect in Asia actually not the norm.
North Korea's broke, Vietnam's broke. North Korea's hard, Vietnam's a soft target and a plaything for foreign expats. Only China has it all and they can't be China cus they're too small. Contrary to what Einstein said, doing the same thing can be very different results for different doers; a mouse that bites a horse is stomped to death while a bear that bites that horse gets to savor a meal.

Vietnam:
"Please, leave me out. I did nothing. I'm not a part of this."
1776364129066.png
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I’m not saying North Korea is anyone’s puppet. But from China’s perspective, if North Korea actually became a wealthy, prosperous nation, they’d become even more unpredictable and impossible for Beijing to handle.

A wealthy, prosperous North Korea would share a land border with China, and have a lot more trade and people movements with China. They would be far more predictable.
 

Wrought

Captain
Registered Member
While you lot are busy squabbling here, the Chinese and Vietnamese leaders were having a nice summit.

“Defending the socialist system and the ruling position of the Communist Party is the greatest common strategic interest,” Mr. Xi told Mr. Lam on Wednesday. While both sides agreed to strengthen ties in tourism, education and railway infrastructure, it was their pledges to work more closely on security that may provide China with the greatest advantage over the United States in the rivalry for deeper inroads with Vietnam.

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, a political scientist at the University of Texas at Austin who studies China’s global security initiatives, said China’s Ministry of Public Security has more cooperation agreements with Vietnam than with any other country. She said it was also especially rare for Chinese state media to acknowledge the spy chief’s participation in a security partnership with another country. “The density and seniority of security interactions between China and Vietnam is really striking,” she said. “Nothing in U.S. efforts to build defense cooperation with Vietnam comes close to matching this combination of frequency and seniority.”

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Lol north Korea is an outlier in this aspect in Asia actually not the norm.
Despite what Western propaganda might claim:

1) NK economy grew significantly from 2012 up until Covid.
2) During this time, private sector grew the fastest - in 2021 private sector surpassed the public sector (though since then Kim has reduced private sector participation in certain sectors, particularly food).
3) Over a dozen new SEZs, mostly in partnership with China were established during this time period.

NK economy is developing, just growth is being balanced with stability and sovereignty.
 

siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
Vietnam is taking more leaves from the Chinese book. CPV continues to be a diligent student of CPC.



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TIL that "socialism with Vietnamese characteristics" is actually an official term.



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Did they copy this off Deng Xiaoping Theory and just search+replaced China with Vietnam???
 
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