054B/new generation frigate

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think the mistake you are making is in viewing everything through the prism of carrier strike group operations.

Yes, CSGs are tip of the spear, best of the best door kickers, but your whole war machine can’t just be about the speartip.

The CSG, 055s and 052Ds are the sword, the 054A/B and 056s are the shields.

As the CSG engages enemy core fleet elements and eliminate them and shatters the island chains to push further out into the open pacific for offensive combat operations, that leaves ever increasing amounts of deep rear real estate to patrol and guard. And it’s not like the PLAN is going to make a beeline for Pearl or San Diego as soon as it’s punched through the second island chain. Most likely, they will seek to establish a cordon in the mid pacific and defence that against enemy forces seeking to breach. That’s what the 054As and Bs are for.

These ships are not meant to face off against enemy fleets or air wings directly. They are there to catch leakers that slip past the CSGs; provide survivable (against the threats they are realistically expected to face) patrol and sensor coverage to ensure there are no or at least minimal sensor dead zones around and behind the CSGs; and provide early warning and first response against any enemies forces that seeks to slip past or flank friendly CSGs.

For that kind of mission, endurance is the primary requirement, speed is secondary.

Sure, having just as many 055s would be far superior, but even China has budgetary and resource limits and cannot build 055s like they are 054Bs.

In that respects, the 054B holds true to the PLA’s core tradition that good enough is good enough. That’s how they have the budget left over for all the no-expense-spared top tier goodies without drowning China in debt like America has done trying to get gold plated everything.
No, I think you misunderstood his position.

I believe @tphuang meant PLAN need a ASW janitor frigate that can still keep up with the CSG, otherwise you'll have to sacrifice at least a 052D in case you need a torp sponge.

From that lense, a cheaper frigate that's still fast is very much in demand. Think of it as the modern Chinese OHP equivalent for PLAN CSG, the same way OHP was supposed to be the torp sponge for the burkes, ticos, and CVN in US Navy.

In that use case, 054B doesn't seem to make the cut. It's still using CODAD, limiting efficiency & future potential, especially in power hungry future capabilities.

In addition, it's max speed (AFAIK the consensus is ~29 knots) seems to be a bit slow for keeping up with CSG that can go above 30 knots, let alone as the front ship of the main pack as ASW screen.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
No, I think you misunderstood his position.

I believe @tphuang meant PLAN need a ASW janitor frigate that can still keep up with the CSG, otherwise you'll have to sacrifice at least a 052D in case you need a torp sponge.

From that lense, a cheaper frigate that's still fast is very much in demand. Think of it as the modern Chinese OHP equivalent for PLAN CSG, the same way OHP was supposed to be the torp sponge for the burkes, ticos, and CVN in US Navy.

In that use case, 054B doesn't seem to make the cut. It's still using CODAD, limiting efficiency & future potential, especially in power hungry future capabilities.

In addition, it's max speed (AFAIK the consensus is ~29 knots) seems to be a bit slow for keeping up with CSG that can go above 30 knots, let alone as the front ship of the main pack as ASW screen.

I think the entire notion that a whole frigging FFG can be treated as a throwaway disposable asset is decades out of date and totally incompatible with what modern FFGs are and the significant value attached to them.

Moreover, modern technology, like the recently revealed anti-torpedo torpedos on the Fujian, means you don’t need to literally throw a perfectly good warship in front of an enemy torpedo to stop it from hitting your carrier.

Similarly, modern DDGs are perfectly capable of conducting ASW without diminishing their AAW capabilities due to the vastly increases in range of both sensor and weapons technology. The USN itself proved that with its pure DDG and CG CSG escorts.

Where the USN fell down is not having a cheap general purpose FFG for all the other missions a modern navy needs to undertake that isn’t CSG related, and that’s mistake the PLAN is determined not to repeat with the 054A/B and 056 families.

The PLAN already have CSG more than covered with its 052C/Ds and 055s, it doesn’t need FFGs in the mix as it’s already got superior ships covering all the roles an FFG might perform in a CSG.

The 054As and Bs are for an entirely separate mission set, so it would be a mistake to judge them on a mission set they were not primarily designed to fill.

The fate of the Constellation class is a timely illustration of the pitfalls and costs that could plague a FFG programme if it tries to be too ambitious in what it is supposed to deliver.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
No, I think you misunderstood his position.

I believe @tphuang meant PLAN need a ASW janitor frigate that can still keep up with the CSG, otherwise you'll have to sacrifice at least a 052D in case you need a torp sponge.

From that lense, a cheaper frigate that's still fast is very much in demand. Think of it as the modern Chinese OHP equivalent for PLAN CSG, the same way OHP was supposed to be the torp sponge for the burkes, ticos, and CVN in US Navy.

In that use case, 054B doesn't seem to make the cut. It's still using CODAD, limiting efficiency & future potential, especially in power hungry future capabilities.

In addition, it's max speed (AFAIK the consensus is ~29 knots) seems to be a bit slow for keeping up with CSG that can go above 30 knots, let alone as the front ship of the main pack as ASW screen.
Fujian has a (required) top speed of 29.5 knots when everything is on.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think the entire notion that a whole frigging FFG can be treated as a throwaway disposable asset is decades out of date and totally incompatible with what modern FFGs are and the significant value attached to them.

Moreover, modern technology, like the recently revealed anti-torpedo torpedos on the Fujian, means you don’t need to literally throw a perfectly good warship in front of an enemy torpedo to stop it from hitting your carrier.

Totally understandable, these FFGs aren't cheap. And yes, anti-torpedo torpedos is basically the Navy's underwater APS. But just like its army equivalent, it can fail, and when it does, I'd prefer a FFG's sacrifice compared to something even more valuable & expensive.

Similarly, modern DDGs are perfectly capable of conducting ASW without diminishing their AAW capabilities due to the vastly increases in range of both sensor and weapons technology. The USN itself proved that with its pure DDG and CG CSG escorts.

That pure DDG & CG escort was because they got rid of OHP as peace dividend and never bothered to replace them because they didn't have enough high end opponent to fight. PLAN is facing US navy from the get go, which got plenty of Virginias to give nasty surprises.

Where the USN fell down is not having a cheap general purpose FFG for all the other missions a modern navy needs to undertake that isn’t CSG related, and that’s mistake the PLAN is determined not to repeat with the 054A/B and 056 families.

054 & 056 families were also conceived when PLAN barely believes in PLAN CSG, so it absolutely make sense that they aren't designed to accompany CSGs. Now even if PLAN wants them to do CSG torp sponge duty, they can't do it because they're not fast enough to keep up with CSG in the first place.

The PLAN already have CSG more than covered with its 052C/Ds and 055s, it doesn’t need FFGs in the mix as it’s already got superior ships covering all the roles an FFG might perform in a CSG.

I'd say its better to be cautious and not conflate PLAN CSG situation to post cold war peace dividend US Navy CSG. PLAN situation is more similar to cold war USN, which was busy fighting Soviet subs.

In comparison, post cold war USN got nothing to worry about, because the Russians were drowning in economic crisis & their subs readiness took a nose dive.

The threat level is just different, and it's wise to take a look at history to see if past solutions made sense. I think cold war USN solution does, and if you have a different view we can agree to disagree.

The 054As and Bs are for an entirely separate mission set, so it would be a mistake to judge them on a mission set they were not primarily designed to fill.

The fate of the Constellation class is a timely illustration of the pitfalls and costs that could plague a FFG programme if it tries to be too ambitious in what it is supposed to deliver.

Then let me put it simply, the CSG frigate requirement is 054B, but faster. Enough independence to do lower end mission on its own, but cheap enough to act as last ditch torp sponge in the CSG.

Or

You know what, since this is the century of drones, if you hated the concept of CSG frigate so much, how about large arsenal ship USV?

They will be pulling increased magazine depth & torp sponge double duty. Minimal sensor fitment, with basic AD but good ASW.

The CV can take care of the AD job, while USV take care of ASW. No lives lost, sounds even better to me!
 
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tphuang

General
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Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Isn't 054B fitted with new indigenous CS16V27 Diesel Engine with power output ~7.5MW (continuous rating) and total ~29MW?

054A is fitted with old (French based) SEMT Pielstick 16 PA6V 280 STC with output 5-6 MW and total only 20.7MW?

Quite a significant step up of 054B over 054A in regard to power
 

Wrought

Senior Member
Registered Member
Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.

Just because it's still CODAD doesn't mean the propulsion wasn't upgraded. The new diesels are significantly more beefy than the old ones. As was already noted, the simplest explanation is that 054A is getting old and needs an iterative, improved, replacement. It doesn't need to be some big break with the past because it's still filling the same old role, just a bit better.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.

Consider how many CSGs there will be in the Chinese Navy. There's currently 3. And by 2030, there should be 5.

Then consider what does the "ideal" CSG comprise of? Based on what we see in the US Navy and Chinese Navy, you've got:

1. two Type-055 as close-in escorts
2. two Air Defence Destroyers (Type-052C/D) as picket ships
3. then two roaming ships in-between (the diagram showed 1 Destroyer and 1 Frigate)

So you can see the requirement is for a total of 5 fast frigates for 5 carriers by 2030

---

And if the Chinese Navy adds 2 carriers every 5 years, that's another 2 fast frigates
That's not many ships, considering the Chinese Navy usually builds like 20 Frigates in the same timeframe
 

tphuang

General
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054B is significantly larger than 054A and it will have significantly higher power demand in the future. There are significant advantages in power efficiency & power system usage for IEPS over CODAD. If IEPS tech and the new 20 cylinder 9MW+ engine is ready then why not wait for that?
Just because it's still CODAD doesn't mean the propulsion wasn't upgraded. The new diesels are significantly more beefy than the old ones. As was already noted, the simplest explanation is that 054A is getting old and needs an iterative, improved, replacement. It doesn't need to be some big break with the past because it's still filling the same old role, just a bit better.
If you consider the jump from 053H3 to 054A in capability, are you seeing the same jump from 054A to 054B? If not, then do you anticipate the current power generation on 054B allow for that?

is PLAN building this class just for a 4 boat transition or for a long production run?
If former, then why are they not trying out a new generation propulsion with it?
If latter, then do you see 054B to still be a desirable design in 15 years?

remember, 054A enters service more than 15 years ago and it is still a capable platform even now.

If I think of the capabilities you would need by 2035, it would seem like power generation is a huge requirement for anything they would want to do.
 
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