Chinese Engine Development

[Blitzo]

Eh, I don’t see the point behind that kind of handwringing. We can discuss design when the questions are about design and we can discuss production when the discussions are about production. The point of discussion should be to explore the details of new developments. The standard for discussion you’re proposing only make sense if your primary interest is to preemptively regulate clout harvesting, which is quite beside the point of substantive engagement, and in this case maybe even counterproductive to it.

Either way, this isn’t the late 2000s when the R&D process was done with haste and a roughshod procedure. If an engine is going into production we can assume safely that it’s met its design requirements. If there’s a problem the engine won’t go into production. I don’t see why there needs to be extra caveats beyond that basic rule of thumb. Doesn’t need to be more complicated than that. In the meantime that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t do performance appraisals of whatever details we do get so long as it’s based on objective evidence.

I wouldn't call it seeking to preemptively regulate clout harvesting, so much as preemptively avoid setting up expectations that have to then be walked back -- and for engines, I do think that is a very important consideration for discussing new developments, even if it isn't an active "goal".
All the advancements of the PRC aeroengine industry that we know of still has to be demonstrated consistently across multiple products over time, imo, for us to take things at more "face value" which we tend to be happy to do with other PLA projects or technologies.

You and I have been doing this for a while now, and even now, in the last year or so, there still appears to be occasional mismatch of expectations being created versus outcomes that then have to be walked back wrt PRC aeroengines


I think for most other domains of PLA watching/technologies that mismatch has been mostly resolved, but something still seems amiss for the aeroengine aspect. I think minimizing that mismatch is a desirable goal of discourse.

J-35 first flight was in 2012 as FC-31. its a very old airframe actually. FC-31 basically languished in limbo for 1 decade.

FC-31 was not a project of PLA interest until likely the mid to late 2010s, so marking the starting line from the first flight of FC-31 isn't quite fair.
Of course, measuring J-35A from its first flight is also putting some weight onto the scale a little because it had the benefit of J-35 and FC-31 prior to it, even if FC-31 probably didn't have the hurry that a proper PLA program would've had.

 

[latenlazy]

I wouldn't call it seeking to preemptively regulate clout harvesting, so much as preemptively avoid setting up expectations that have to then be walked back -- and for engines, I do think that is a very important consideration for discussing new developments, even if it isn't an active "goal".
All the advancements of the PRC aeroengine industry that we know of still has to be demonstrated consistently across multiple products over time, imo, for us to take things at more "face value" which we tend to be happy to do with other PLA projects or technologies.

You and I have been doing this for a while now, and even now, in the last year or so, there still appears to be occasional mismatch of expectations being created versus outcomes that then have to be walked back wrt PRC aeroengines


I think for most other domains of PLA watching/technologies that mismatch has been mostly resolved, but something still seems amiss for the aeroengine aspect. I think minimizing that mismatch is a desirable goal of discourse.

We’re going to get misses once in a while. I don’t think it’s that big a deal. We’ve already seen lots of face value demonstrations of successful Chinese engine projects at this point. I think trying to avoid misses is actually a much less productive approach to discussion than openly exploring what available details are suggesting, so long as the discussion is grounded in reasonable objective merits.

 

[sequ]

Fan pressure ratio of 5 is very impressive with 3 stages and compressor pressure ratio of 7 with only 5 stages is also impressive. OPR of 35 is very high.

15736 lbf dry, 24738 lbf wet is no slough at all. That is what the South Koreans are aiming for their indigenous engine for the KF-21 as well.

Inlet airflow of 100kg/s is very impressive and leaves a lot of room for (thrust) growth. EJ200 is at 77kg/s.

 

[broadsword]

View attachment 162083

When will the prototype be ready?

 

[Alfa_Particle]

When will the prototype be ready?

I mean, considering it already flew on a J-35 back in late 2023, a prototype's probably long since ready.

 

[Tomboy]

I mean, considering it already flew on a J-35 back in late 2023, a prototype's probably long since ready.

So the J-35A's on parade were in fact not using WS-19?

 

[Alfa_Particle]

So the J-35A's on parade were in fact not using WS-19?

...I didn't say that? Where'd you get that from?

 

[Tomboy]

...I didn't say that? Where'd you get that from?

Sorry, I thought you were implying that WS-19 is still in the prototype phase

 

[Michael90]

People were hyping it up to be a super EJ270 with the most cutting edge technology comparable to WS-15(Which is supposedly the best engine until next gen VCE comes out).

Dude calm down, China is a very new entrant in the jet engine game. It will take China a long time to be able to match the best US/UK or french engine out therd. The fact that China has already closed the gap so much should be a cause of celebration looking from where they came from. There is no easy fix on this unlike other sectors. Jet engine is the pinacle of industrial/technological development of a country, maybe only surpass by advanced semiconductor chips.
Plus experience matters alot in this sector, its not something you can catch up with just using better tech without building accumulated skills/know how with experienced processes. So it takes time.
The goid news is that China is advancing at a decent pace, and there is reason to be optimistic this comibg years/decades , looking at how far the country came from in this sector, if they maintain this speed they might catch up with the best this coming years/ decades

 

[latenlazy]

Dude calm down, China is a very new entrant in the jet engine game. It will take China a long time to be able to match the best US/UK or french engine out therd. The fact that China has already closed the gap so much should be a cause of celebration looking from where they came from. There is no easy fix on this unlike other sectors. Jet engine is the pinacle of industrial/technological development of a country, maybe only surpass by advanced semiconductor chips.
Plus experience matters alot in this sector, its not something you can catch up with just using better tech without building accumulated skills/know how with experienced processes. So it takes time.
The goid news is that China is advancing at a decent pace, and there is reason to be optimistic this comibg years/decades , looking at how far the country came from in this sector, if they maintain this speed they might catch up with the best this coming years/ decades

Eh the specs that got leaked, if they’re real, suggest the gap is basically closed.