Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

hereforsemithread

New Member
Registered Member
Do they really need to concentrate air forces against an irregular army with no navy and no air force to establish air superiority?

This argument of yours, contrary to what is expected, may serve the purpose of highlighting the inability of the US to establish air superiority. If they could, they would have already established it.

I think you are ignoring the implications here.

If they needed to concentrate air forces against the Houthis, what does that tell you about Iran? Against Russia? Against China?

Do you see how the war in Ukraine has made the debate so polluted on this issue of air superiority? If the Americans, who already had forces deployed in the region, counting on a CVN with its entire air wing and bombers in Diego Garcia, were unable to establish air superiority by losing combat aircraft and drones to the Houthis, do you really believe that the Americans would have the capacity to achieve air superiority against Russia? Against China? Even against Iran, this objective can be considered doubtful.

This is what DS 91 (outlier) and two decades of invading countries without the slightest possibility of retaliating against the attack provided to turn the debate on air superiority into a war of narratives, but the issue of Ukraine and its repercussions, combined with other more recent events, are demonstrating that air superiority is no longer as easily achievable as it was made to seem in DS and air supremacy is a thing of the past.
They have Iranian SAMs and probably radars too. These aren't Congolese insurgents with nothing but AKs, that's a plainly false claim by Iran and allies to implicitly hype up their competence.

The Ukraine war didn't muddy anything. Ukraine had capable air defense at the start of the war in large numbers of S300 batteries and decent legacy radars and it's gotten better since from American systems.
The Russian Air Force is totally incompetent and incapable of any kind of SEAD. It's not wise to make conclusions about contemporary air war from their performance.

Yes I think the USAF could destroy Russian air defenses though it would be bloody and require drawing large forces from MENA and Westpac. No I don't think they could destroy Chinese air defense.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Houthi discourse is tedious. Complete Nothingburger.

The US could definitely establish air supremacy over Yemen it would just have to actually put in the work of massing air forces in SA and drawing up a real plan for consistently locating and destroying the Iranian SAMs there.
More importantly it would have to be willing to lose a nonzero number of piloted craft in the process which the public has no appetite for. So this isn't happening.

As to actually destroying the houthis that's impossible conventionally. Yemen is heavily mountainous and the size of Montana, and they are deeply embedded in the civilian populace. Moreover their coastline is too large to feasibility blockade especially when they've already accumulated a considerable number of ASBMs again from Iran.

The only way to actually do it would be to pursue a genocidal campaign against the houthi controlled portion of Yemen itself which SA already tried and failed to do last decade. The US attempted this against North Vietnam and likewise failed from public discontent over the draft, the North Vietnamese Air Force being competent, and domestic moral outrage. Again not happening.

All that being said it's also true that the houthis aren't really doing much. They've been harassing shipping in the aden Gulf for 18 months and it's done basically nothing at an aggregate level to Israel or Europe. They've bombed Israel a couple times but they have zero real ISTAR and evidently Iranian inertial guidance systems aren't great (see April 2024) so beyond the symbolic message it's likewise done basically nothing.

I have no idea why DOD has given them the time of day. It's a total waste and unnecessarily flattering towards a group that doesn't pose a real proactive threat to anyone other than the people they rule.
I don't understand what are you talking about. Yemenis have succesfully hit multiple times in the heart Israel, overcoming the "best air defences in universe" etc. I don't know if you understand the fact that the first operational successful use of hypersonic weapons is done by Yemenis. Who have shown the ability to put combined hi tech attacks with numbers. I'm pretty sure that many more incidents happened but never reported by EU and US. Here in Greece, the proud lap dog of the known slaughterers, we sent a frigate to red sea for the EU taskforce, and there were reports on newspapers that crews complained about the ship being unable to defend itself from UAV's and had to rely on other ships, which was too stressful and dangerous.
True promise shown that air supremacy can be deleted against a country which has only 5 proper military airbases especially if the attacker have the ability to shoot more than one missile per day. Ok, you can send the remaining aircrafts to friendly countries, and then? The game is on tactical weapons and ground missiles are way too effective than air delivery if you can reach the range that suits to your plans. Which concludes that modern air superiority applies mostly into terrorising civilians. You hear IOF? Israelis will never achieve complete win, and if they hadn't flattened Gaza in a cowardly and indiscriminate way, they would have faced a serious kick in the butt like the first months in the urban warfare. Same applies to Hezbollah of course and the controversial western construct known as modern Lebanon. Oh, and modern Syria too.
 

hereforsemithread

New Member
Registered Member
I don't know if you understand the fact that the first operational successful use of hypersonic weapons is done by Yemenis.
ALL BALLISTIC MISSILES are hypersonic in their terminal phase. This is an issue of basic technical literacy.
Yemenis have succesfully hit multiple times in the heart Israel, overcoming the "best air defences in universe" etc.
And said attacks have demonstrably done nothing to harm Israel's economy or its capacity to make war.
You hear IOF? Israelis will never achieve complete win, and if they hadn't flattened Gaza in a cowardly and indiscriminate way, they would have faced a serious kick in the butt like the first months in the urban warfare.
Hezbollah was effectively destroyed in less than four months. I'm stoping here but in may of 2025 this cope is just sad. That Israel has uncontested air superiority and can use this to avoid the worst of bloody urban fighting is in fact a sign that they are good at war not bad at it.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is an issue of basic technical literacy.
ok makes logic, i'm just a graphic designer. So i will take a more emotional stance to the facts. The whole southern sea access denied? lol without the cash injection and the tons of weapons donated by those with smaller brains than reptiles... 2025 is not sad. It's shame. To whom? The list is long but the most moral -good at- manslaughtering machine is high on the list. You know, funny enough, i had a conversation with my girl ( happens to be post graduate md and philoshophy, getting a master on bioethics this summer ) some hours before, about the stance of China on the Israeli-Palestinian matter, and i was somehow wandering about a louder stance like the USSR global voice on UN and stuff like that. And i realised that China made the most useful, they put all the palestinian factions on a table to form a solid front. USSR voices, appearences in UN and so, didn't reversed tens of coups and proxy wars. It's a matter of modern western and arab people. Are we monkeys or something? What a country in the other hemisphere can do, or, have to do? I hope a silent embargo on Israelis hehe
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
They have Iranian SAMs and probably radars too. These aren't Congolese insurgents with nothing but AKs, that's a plainly false claim by Iran and allies to implicitly hype up their competence.
The Houthis have medium-range SAMs, they do not have anything similar to the Bavar or any other long-range SAM missile, and yet the entire coalition has been unable to effectively destroy the Houthis' air defenses. They continue to contest the airspace by shooting down drones, forcing aircraft to stay out of engagement range of medium-range SAMs, and forcing F-35s to make evasive maneuvers to avoid being targeted by SAM fire.

They are far from insurgents with AKs, but they are also nothing compared to a conventional army with retaliatory capabilities on par with conventional armies. It is easy to make that distinction when they are not even a regular Yemeni army.
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
The Ukraine war didn't muddy anything. Ukraine had capable air defense at the start of the war in large numbers of S300 batteries and decent legacy radars and it's gotten better since from American systems.
The Russian Air Force is totally incompetent and incapable of any kind of SEAD. It's not wise to make conclusions about contemporary air war from their performance.

Yes I think the USAF could destroy Russian air defenses though it would be bloody and require drawing large forces from MENA and Westpac. No I don't think they could destroy Chinese air defense.
It is precisely because of Ukraine's air defense capabilities and Russia's incompetence that Ukrainian airspace is still contested by both sides. It turns out that not even the Americans have ever had to deal militarily with a country that has capable modern air defenses. The last time this was done was 60 years ago when there was not even a SEAD doctrine.

You seem to be ignoring one fact: the Russians are much more powerful in air defense than the Ukrainians, and even if the Americans were capable of conducting a SEAD campaign, they would not have the full freedom they did in campaigns like DS. In fact, evaluating American performance in DS is not sensible to explain effective capabilities against a country like Russia and China.

Russia is as capable in air defense as China, if not more so, but the Chinese air force is much more capable than the VKS. A comparative point to explain the differences between Russian and Chinese military capabilities, but it turns out that the Russians actually have a capable strategic bomber force and a ballistic missile force, in addition to their own warships that can also launch long-range missiles.

To make it clearer, Ukraine uses dispersed bases spread throughout the country. With the help of Soviet-origin fighters that can operate even from irregular runways, it makes locating AFU aircraft even more difficult, therefore, an extremely difficult task to locate any fighters inside Ukraine while still at their bases, especially given Russia's limited space surveillance capabilities. Even the F-16 will be
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to operate on highways with limited support from the ground crew.

The Russians would attack NATO's force multiplier assets. First, their support aircraft and force multipliers such as AWACS/AEW&C, REVO, JSTARS, ELINT/SIGINT, among others, need to operate from a land-based base, not accepting any runway (they need to be long runways) or any support infrastructure. All these bases in Europe are already monitored and recognized by the Russians, who could carry out preparatory strikes and precede any attack against Russia. The advantage over Russia would diminish sharply without these force multiplier aircraft, leveling the air combat, becoming what we see in Ukraine.

This is the biggest misunderstanding about the Russian doctrine other than A2/AD that China has followed.

Russian forces are organized around strategic offensive/defensive operations that do not suggest the intention of retreating into a defensive bubble and being swallowed up by a US-led aerospace attack. To nullify this advantage of American aerospace power, they would preemptively strike any major air base that is the center of operations for these force multiplier aircraft. They would use their strategic aviation (LRA - Long Range Aviation) composed of strategic bombers that can fire both the Kinzhal and long-range cruise missiles, in addition to the MiG-31K to employ the Kinzhal. The VMF would also use its ships to launch long-range cruise missiles and the Oreshnik (a missile previously banned by the INF treaty) as a complementary ground component of the entire Russian conventional strike force. This would make things even more difficult for NATO.

The difference between a Russian attack on NATO and a NATO attack on Russia is that unlike the US, all of Europe lacks air defenses, so the chances of NATO's air defense systems being saturated are extremely high. NATO certainly has air defenses, largely because the US has 480 Patriots divided into eight brigades. No NATO country has a defense comparable to the US, much less Russia, which has more than the US in just one branch (VKS), around 582 long-range SAMs divided into: 160 S-300PS (RS-SA-10B Grumble); 150 S-300PM1/PM2 (RS-SA-20 Gargoyle); 20S-300V (RS-SA-12 Gladiator/Giant); 6 S-350 Vityaz (RS-SA-28); 248 S-400 (RS-SA-21 Growler). I don't need to say that the US would never put all the Patriots in Europe, they have global theaters distributed to demand SAM systems such as in Asia, such as South Korea, Guam and Japan, and the Middle East. So do the math.

I'm not the one saying that NATO's air defenses are deficient, they themselves admit it after the events that occurred in Ukraine. American and European ships could certainly extend land-based air defense, but that would be a waste of resources, making NATO ships less involved in naval operations and more involved in defensive operations against Russian missiles. If they really wanted to defend themselves against the Russians, they could count on additional naval help, but that would eliminate the advantage NATO would have in naval warfare. Simply put, Not giving up filling the VLS with anti-ship and land attack missiles to fill it only with SAMs is a complete waste. They would never do that.

It is worth noting that Russian doctrine is different from that of the West, especially the US. They had their doctrine validated in the Yom Kippur War, see Operation Model 5 or the Air Battle of Mansoura.

Mobile batteries are difficult to locate, designate and destroy. Of course, since Yom Kippur, a lot has changed in terms of air defense and SEAD/DEAD, but even so, the concept is still valid to be observed in Soviet/Russian doctrine.

It is worth noting that even before the fall of the USSR, the Russians were already aware of the great American aerospace power, they could never match this capability, the approach was a mix of a great variety and scope of SAM systems with an aviation capable of decisively confronting American aerospace power.

This is still valid today. The VKS, together with air defenses, would be able to resist American aerospace power or limit the damage from US aerospace power. The Russians were never able to achieve air superiority against the Americans, the doctrinal conception predicted this, but air parity was achievable, which would stimulate what we are seeing in Ukraine today, where each air force would only be able to provide marginal support to the ground forces, incapable of changing the static front of the war. And this is even worse for the Americans, because they rely on the USAF to achieve air superiority and advance on Russian ground formations. Thus, the marginal support of the USAF would have especially degraded the ground operations of the US Army.

I will not make comparisons here off topic, but to be frank, in a Russia vs. US war, the certainty of American victory is almost certain. That is why the Russians trust their nuclear arsenal. This does not prevent us from critically assessing that the Americans could not even achieve the advantage that throughout these 30 years of military advantage was a prior consideration in war exercises: being able to gain air superiority against their enemies.

To summarize what I said, the Russians could not possibly want to achieve air superiority against the US; in fact, it is more of a strategy of damage limitation, counterattacks and preemptive strikes, which has been maintained since the Soviets correctly assessed Operation Model 5 or the Air Battle of Mansoura. Of course, we can also assess, for example, Israel's effective SEAD in the Battle of the Bekaa Valley, but in that battle there was Arab recklessness and arrogance. The accumulation of SAMs had been occurring since June 1981, and the operators had become arrogant enough to get used to the IAF's UAV reconnaissance flights and did not camouflage their systems or constantly change position. The IAF began conducting reconnaissance with UAVs and training its pilots in the Negev Desert against SAM positions identical to those found in Lebanon. As early as 1973, Israel managed to cross the river because Egypt was foolish enough to advance beyond the cover of its own air defenses and faced two realities in the air battle against the IAF in which it lost 28 aircraft in a single day. Israel managed to end up entrenching itself west of the canal, which was at the cost to Egypt of having advanced beyond the cover of its own air defenses.
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
It is precisely because of Ukraine's air defense capabilities and Russia's incompetence that Ukrainian airspace is still contested by both sides. It turns out that not even the Americans have ever had to deal militarily with a country that has capable modern air defenses. The last time this was done was 60 years ago when there was not even a SEAD doctrine.

You seem to be ignoring one fact: the Russians are much more powerful in air defense than the Ukrainians, and even if the Americans were capable of conducting a SEAD campaign, they would not have the full freedom they did in campaigns like DS. In fact, evaluating American performance in DS is not sensible to explain effective capabilities against a country like Russia and China.

Russia is as capable in air defense as China, if not more so, but the Chinese air force is much more capable than the VKS. A comparative point to explain the differences between Russian and Chinese military capabilities, but it turns out that the Russians actually have a capable strategic bomber force and a ballistic missile force, in addition to their own warships that can also launch long-range missiles.

To make it clearer, Ukraine uses dispersed bases spread throughout the country. With the help of Soviet-origin fighters that can operate even from irregular runways, it makes locating AFU aircraft even more difficult, therefore, an extremely difficult task to locate any fighters inside Ukraine while still at their bases, especially given Russia's limited space surveillance capabilities. Even the F-16 will be
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to operate on highways with limited support from the ground crew.

The Russians would attack NATO's force multiplier assets. First, their support aircraft and force multipliers such as AWACS/AEW&C, REVO, JSTARS, ELINT/SIGINT, among others, need to operate from a land-based base, not accepting any runway (they need to be long runways) or any support infrastructure. All these bases in Europe are already monitored and recognized by the Russians, who could carry out preparatory strikes and precede any attack against Russia. The advantage over Russia would diminish sharply without these force multiplier aircraft, leveling the air combat, becoming what we see in Ukraine.

This is the biggest misunderstanding about the Russian doctrine other than A2/AD that China has followed.

Russian forces are organized around strategic offensive/defensive operations that do not suggest the intention of retreating into a defensive bubble and being swallowed up by a US-led aerospace attack. To nullify this advantage of American aerospace power, they would preemptively strike any major air base that is the center of operations for these force multiplier aircraft. They would use their strategic aviation (LRA - Long Range Aviation) composed of strategic bombers that can fire both the Kinzhal and long-range cruise missiles, in addition to the MiG-31K to employ the Kinzhal. The VMF would also use its ships to launch long-range cruise missiles and the Oreshnik (a missile previously banned by the INF treaty) as a complementary ground component of the entire Russian conventional strike force. This would make things even more difficult for NATO.

The difference between a Russian attack on NATO and a NATO attack on Russia is that unlike the US, all of Europe lacks air defenses, so the chances of NATO's air defense systems being saturated are extremely high. NATO certainly has air defenses, largely because the US has 480 Patriots divided into eight brigades. No NATO country has a defense comparable to the US, much less Russia, which has more than the US in just one branch (VKS), around 582 long-range SAMs divided into: 160 S-300PS (RS-SA-10B Grumble); 150 S-300PM1/PM2 (RS-SA-20 Gargoyle); 20S-300V (RS-SA-12 Gladiator/Giant); 6 S-350 Vityaz (RS-SA-28); 248 S-400 (RS-SA-21 Growler). I don't need to say that the US would never put all the Patriots in Europe, they have global theaters distributed to demand SAM systems such as in Asia, such as South Korea, Guam and Japan, and the Middle East. So do the math.

I'm not the one saying that NATO's air defenses are deficient, they themselves admit it after the events that occurred in Ukraine. American and European ships could certainly extend land-based air defense, but that would be a waste of resources, making NATO ships less involved in naval operations and more involved in defensive operations against Russian missiles. If they really wanted to defend themselves against the Russians, they could count on additional naval help, but that would eliminate the advantage NATO would have in naval warfare. Simply put, Not giving up filling the VLS with anti-ship and land attack missiles to fill it only with SAMs is a complete waste. They would never do that.

It is worth noting that Russian doctrine is different from that of the West, especially the US. They had their doctrine validated in the Yom Kippur War, see Operation Model 5 or the Air Battle of Mansoura.

Mobile batteries are difficult to locate, designate and destroy. Of course, since Yom Kippur, a lot has changed in terms of air defense and SEAD/DEAD, but even so, the concept is still valid to be observed in Soviet/Russian doctrine.

It is worth noting that even before the fall of the USSR, the Russians were already aware of the great American aerospace power, they could never match this capability, the approach was a mix of a great variety and scope of SAM systems with an aviation capable of decisively confronting American aerospace power.

This is still valid today. The VKS, together with air defenses, would be able to resist American aerospace power or limit the damage from US aerospace power. The Russians were never able to achieve air superiority against the Americans, the doctrinal conception predicted this, but air parity was achievable, which would stimulate what we are seeing in Ukraine today, where each air force would only be able to provide marginal support to the ground forces, incapable of changing the static front of the war. And this is even worse for the Americans, because they rely on the USAF to achieve air superiority and advance on Russian ground formations. Thus, the marginal support of the USAF would have especially degraded the ground operations of the US Army.

I will not make comparisons here off topic, but to be frank, in a Russia vs. US war, the certainty of American victory is almost certain. That is why the Russians trust their nuclear arsenal. This does not prevent us from critically assessing that the Americans could not even achieve the advantage that throughout these 30 years of military advantage was a prior consideration in war exercises: being able to gain air superiority against their enemies.

To summarize what I said, the Russians could not possibly want to achieve air superiority against the US; in fact, it is more of a strategy of damage limitation, counterattacks and preemptive strikes, which has been maintained since the Soviets correctly assessed Operation Model 5 or the Air Battle of Mansoura. Of course, we can also assess, for example, Israel's effective SEAD in the Battle of the Bekaa Valley, but in that battle there was Arab recklessness and arrogance. The accumulation of SAMs had been occurring since June 1981, and the operators had become arrogant enough to get used to the IAF's UAV reconnaissance flights and did not camouflage their systems or constantly change position. The IAF began conducting reconnaissance with UAVs and training its pilots in the Negev Desert against SAM positions identical to those found in Lebanon. As early as 1973, Israel managed to cross the river because Egypt was foolish enough to advance beyond the cover of its own air defenses and faced two realities in the air battle against the IAF in which it lost 28 aircraft in a single day. Israel managed to end up entrenching itself west of the canal, which was at the cost to Egypt of having advanced beyond the cover of its own air defenses.
The scenario against China is even worse. American air dominance is clearly being challenged by China.

Since the Cold War, the Soviets have never been able to achieve air dominance against the United States. In Europe, some 3,000 NATO fighters were deployed against nearly 8,000 Warsaw Pact fighters, fighter-bombers and attack aircraft. Reinforcements from the United States and France would be more than offset by reserves from the central and eastern USSR.

Both NATO and the Warsaw Pact claimed that their forces were defensive, and indeed the WP equipment seemed to confirm this position: almost 60% of the aircraft were interceptors and just over 30% were conventional or nuclear strike aircraft. Both sides devoted 8% of their air forces to reconnaissance, but NATO used two-thirds of its aircraft for attack and only a quarter for defense. NATO experts, however, argued that Eastern Europe was in fact placing too much emphasis on air superiority of aircraft to the detriment of the battlefield.

China mirrors American air doctrine. Air advantage is essential, so establishing air superiority is vital to any naval (especially amphibious) and air warfare scenario, so in terms of air combat training, SEAD/DEAD, among other types of missions, the PLAAF/PLANAF mirrors the USN/USMC/USAF, including the type of mission of the aircraft that have already emerged (J-10/J-20) and are emergin (J-36/J-50) perform, all geared towards the air superiority role, even fighters like the J-16 (4th generation for attack and multirole) and the J-35 (5th generation for multirole) can be used to help establish air superiority against the Americans in the Pacific.
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
Hezbollah was effectively destroyed in less than four months. I'm stoping here but in may of 2025 this cope is just sad. That Israel has uncontested air superiority and can use this to avoid the worst of bloody urban fighting is in fact a sign that they are good at war not bad at it.
On the contrary, it was a sign that Israel is extremely limited in terms of urban and ground warfare. What was an accepted recognition by the Western military community was that the IDF was extremely efficient in MOUT, but nothing we saw in Gaza and in other theaters such as southern Lebanon attests to this efficiency of the IDF in urban and ground warfare. On the contrary, it demonstrated serious limitations and Israel achieved victory with the greatest advantage it has over its Arab enemies: air power and technology.

I will give you an example, official data from an Israeli think tank says that more than 7,000 medical evacuations have been carried out in Gaza since the beginning of the conflict. I think anyone here who has been in the military or has any practical knowledge knows what more than 7,000 medical evacuations can mean, it suggests that the total reported injuries are extremely high. Not every wounded soldier needs to be evacuated unless he is incapable of walking on his own two feet and having his own consciousness.

By this time, there has been another recent call for reservists to be deployed again, and fatigue is already being considered a critical factor in the IDF, as they are still fighting a regular army trapped in a surrounded area unable to fight back against any air or artillery strikes.

In Lebanon, the IDF has made negligible progress towards the Litani River – which was widely considered their objective. The furthest penetration into Lebanon was only 5 km, and almost all of that distance was gained in the first month of fighting. And if you can scoff at Russian advances in Ukraine, you need to consider looking at the IDF. The IDF has advanced at the same pace as the Russian army in Ukraine in 2024. The pace of Russian advance is widely scoffed at, despite the fact that, unlike Israel, the Russians do not have complete air superiority – Ukraine has a formidable air defense provided by NATO. Unlike Hezbollah, Ukraine possesses unmatched ISR capabilities (from a network of satellites), making it impossible for Russian forces of any significant size to conceal it, and it also possesses its own mechanized forces and artillery.
 

anamensis25

New Member
Registered Member
The Western left-wing claims that China must be a savior in Gaza, but they are incapable of inducing their own governments to at least stop military support to Israel. Anyway, why China should come to confront westerns for Gaza,when Sunni Arabs themselves are silent about Israel genocide (Even Al-Qaeda in Syria is begging to normalize with Israel lol).

By the way, Gaza is lost already. Iran is in the process of surrendering to Western capitals, syrian supply route is gone and hezbolla is weaker than ever. Only houthies are gonna make it.

That is what Hamas got for collaborating with Mossad in Syria civil warfare (see Yarmouk refugee camp takeover)

 
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