All newType-59 thread

[antiterror13]

Have you seen the latest gear worn by the Chinese peacekeepers? They all wear advanced body armor. So they do equip their combat units with body armor. It's completely wasteful to equip all 2 million PLA soldiers with body armor during peace time when the armor typically expire I a few years. And bear in mind that most of the photos we see on the web are not elite units. I mean this is simply a probability thing. You will have less chance seeing the elite units because they are elite and there are less of them.

Very true, PLA elite unit which is extremely good, modern and mobile, only ~200K soldiers, roughly only 10% of total foot soldiers. None of European country has more than 200K active soldiers

 

[FORBIN]

The Military Balance 2014
650 ZTZ59D-105
550 ZTZ59B-105
2200 ZTZ59-100

 

[antiterror13]

The Military Balance 2014
650 ZTZ59D-105
550 ZTZ59B-105
2200 ZTZ59-100

How about the number of Type 59G?

Do you think PLA would upgrade the existing "old" 2,200 ZTZ59 (with 100mm gun) ?

I'd like to see the diesel engine to be upgraded to at least 750 hp, it should be relatively easily done by China and cheap enough

 

[Insignius]

And what about the ZTZ-59-IIA aka. ZTZ-59C (105mm like the II/B but with a cage armor around the turret)?

 

[PanAsian]

Fair enough that it makes sense for China to spend on other priorities than modernizing all aspects of their entire ground force but equipment like the Type 59 is extremely likely to be little more than death traps if used conventionally. So the PLA better have creatively effective tactics in employing such outdated equipment, ready designs for meaningful upgrades, and the ability to rapidly churn out and apply these upgrades en masse. There does come a time when the baseline has to be raised and the weakest link is just too weak.

 

[lcloo]

Everybody wants to replace old stuff like Type 59s, including PLA top brass.

However, do remember that
1) They are still useful for training tank crews at peace time

2) They are still effective as a second line defence and low intensity battles

3) It takes years and decades to replace thousands of tanks with current factory production rates. Example if the peace time production rate is 200 tanks a year, to replace 5000 tanks will take 25 years. And thus far I think PLA is at half way mark with new Type 96 and type 99.

4) Money - allocation of funds for annual purchase of tanks must be budget sustainable and would not eat into allocation of funds for other military expenditure of army, armed police, navy, air force and second artillery.

 

[joshuatree]

3) It takes years and decades to replace thousands of tanks with current factory production rates. Example if the peace time production rate is 200 tanks a year, to replace 5000 tanks will take 25 years. And thus far I think PLA is at half way mark with new Type 96 and type 99.

Let's also take into account that modern tanks would be far more lethal and survivable so replacement rate doesn't necessarily have to be 1:1. Also, something the PLA did not have in the past were attack helos and that also needs to be factored into the equation.

Having said that, a question for the PLA would be, do they see the Type 59 to remain in service for many more years? If so, another upgrade could be beneficial and that doesn't mean it has to be for the entire remaining Type 59 inventory. Perhaps the units in the best condition should be upgraded to enhance performance and survivability while others go to a bone yard for spare parts. Pakistan upgraded their 59s with better engine, reactive armor, and newer gun. Could be a cost effective way to keep the 59 relevant and compensate for rate of production of the newer tanks.

 

[SilentObserver]

Uhhh...sorry for being off topic, but I wouldn't put my bet on a force whose individual infantry equipment only cost the same amount as two iphones. Yes, I am sure many of them are well-trained physically, but I march onto a modern battlefield with 1970s equipment. Even ISIS fighters wear modern body armour, while we barely see any PLA troops wearing them. I talked to a former PLA officer before, and he said it is not necessary to use body armour during peacetime training. But he failed to answer what if soldiers are suddenly ordered to wear body armour during a crisis, and they are not used to it?
As with type 59II tanks (and older type 59s), while their L7 105mm guns could fire Tungsten (and DU) kinetic penetrators, their engines are way too outdated (580 horsepower only, your got to be kidding me), and they could be easily penetrated by a well-aimed RPG shot. Although tanks like type 59Ds, 79s, 88s have better armor and possibly 730hp engines, their overall capabilities are only similar to that of the American M60A3 tanks and British Centurions (which are both 1950s designs).

Hi Josh, regarding the apparent lack of body armor on PLA troops here are some videos that show them wearing body armor. It seems like Chinese troops are only equipped with body armor when they are deployed to high threat zones.

In the 1990's even the American troops during the first gulf war were not usually equipped with body armor.

 

[antiterror13]

Fair enough that it makes sense for China to spend on other priorities than modernizing all aspects of their entire ground force but equipment like the Type 59 is extremely likely to be little more than death traps if used conventionally. So the PLA better have creatively effective tactics in employing such outdated equipment, ready designs for meaningful upgrades, and the ability to rapidly churn out and apply these upgrades en masse. There does come a time when the baseline has to be raised and the weakest link is just too weak.

Type 59 still very effective for most countries bordering China. China borders 14 nations, and Type 59 still very effective for 12 bordering countries Vietnam, Laos, Burma, Bhutan, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, and North Korea. China may need more modern tanks for bordering countries India and Russia.

 

[SpicySichuan]

It seems like Chinese troops are only equipped with body armor when they are deployed to high threat zones.

I do notice this. Only PLA troops that are deployed abroad or on anti-piracy missions wear kevlar vests. However, even the PLA troops that are deployed near the Burmese border don't have kevlar vests (I'm talking about real combat here). Also, if the infantry aren't used to wearing heavy vests during their daily training, I doubted they would be used to wearing them during real combat. Again, sorry for being OT.