Something doesn't make sense here, a Chinese military helicopter is using Pratt and Whitney Canada turbines?
Z-8 and Z-18 transport helicopter - family & versions
- Thread starter Costas 240GD
- Start date
This is really great. For everyone out there that can understand Chinese, you should read this article or listen to his recent podcast. The importance of the Z-8/18 program and the difficulties it encountered along the way are all laid to bare in these pieces.
The Z-8 program has been a long struggle for Changhe due just very weak helicopter investment for decades. It wasn't until operation desert storm when PLA really saw the importance of helicopters to army operations. And then the wenchuan earthquake came and they really experienced how few helicopters they had.
The original Z-8 was certified back in 1996, but it was still worse in performance than the 1960s Super Frelon. The main issue was the engine. For much of late 90s and first half of 2000s, they were producing just a couple of Z-8s a year to keep the lights open. They were using the very underpowered WZ-6A engine (which is probably a copy of the original engine they received). Up until Wenchuan earthquake, very well Z-8s were produced. Everyone in PLA saw the shortage of helicopters during that time. All they had were 200 to 300 Mi-17s. I think that's when they started push the Z-8 program along a little more. Mi-171 were sufficient for usage, but not particular advanced. They weren't advanced enough to see for local production or to copy. Aside from that, they were finally making progress on upgrading Z8 from engine to avionics to rotor blade to more composite material. The program received a boost with the PT6B engines. The AC313 led to certain improvements that were also implemented on other platforms. They were finally able to use it in altitude. It seems like they finally started to mass produce for the army about 10 years ago.
Using huitong and scramble site, I counted up over 30 mi17 dadui with pla and about 5 with air force. I think they have close to 450 mi17s in service. While that is a large number, I think they have taken deliveries of more z8 than that in this past decade. I count about 15 daduis with pla lh and 7 with pap and other related services of b, g, l and wjs variety. All would have been delivered during this time. There is probably also 40 to 50 delivered to navy. Out of the close to 400 z8/18s in service with pla, about 3/4 were building in the past decade. It just shows how much things have changed in this program. By my count, there has been about 7 Z-8G, 2 Z-8L and the roughly 20 Z-18/8Cs (about 130 helicopters in total) that have joined service with PLA LH and PLAN air wing in the past 4 years. AC313 spurred quite a successful series of helicopters. On top of that, they can finally mass produce Z-8 series domestically. Z-8L was another product improvement to support VP4 Lynx ATV in its Cargo. Not being able to fit Lynx ATV was a major issue for the the original AC313 design and the Z-8G project.
That leads us to the AC313A project, which will use 3 WZ-10 turboshaft engines as well as redesigned fuselage from Z-8L project to support larger cargo hold for Lynx ATV. By the time the military version of AC313A enter service, this will be a completely different helicopter than Z8 of 20 years ago. It will be a 15 ton class heavy helicopter more comparable to EH101. With 3 WZ-10 turboshaft (each rated at 1600 kw power), it will have more power than EH101 and a lot more power than Mi-171. In short, it will be the premier heavy lift helicopter that PLA LH always needed. When we look at PLA LH fleet, they now have a lot of Mi-17s, a good number of Z-8s and a small number of Z-20s (may 800 such transport aircraft in total). While that is a significant number, that's much less than the large fleet of black hawks and Chinooks serving with US Army. A lot of the LH brigades are still only equipped with 3 or 4 daduis instead of 6.
Up until 2010, most of China's helicopter production was Z-9 series. With Z-8 and Z-20 finally mass produced, I expect the future LH fleet mix to be far more oriented around medium and heavy helicopters. They probably need another 400 Z-8/18 variants to fully satisfy all the PLA requirements and partially replace the Mi-171 fleet. While a lot of attentions have been paid to the Z-20 project, the upcoming Z-8 variants are probably just as important.
antiterror13
Brigadier
Thanks, awesome. Just ask a simple question, what is "dadui" ?, kind of helicopter regiment ?
broadsword
Brigadier
That level of power rating is dope. It was just 1000 when it was first introduced.
Dadui means big team in Chinese. Each PLA LH dadui is 12 helicopters. Previously, they had 3 dadui per regiment. Now, a lot of the brigades have up to 6 dadui as more transport helicopters enter service.
As an example, this is the LH brigade for the 82nd army group. It has 2 different Z-8 daduis, 1 Z-10 dadui, 1 Z-19 dadui and probably 2 Z-9 dadui. So a wide variety of transport, utility and attack helicopters.
Not all the LH brigade are this diverse or well equipped. Some like the Xizang one is very heavily equipped with transport helps and only has the 1 Z-10 dadui and no Z-9 utility helicopters. It also doesn't appear to have full complement of 6 daduis.
As time goes on, I expect a lot of the light transport or utility helicopters to get replaced by Z-20s. The Z-9Ws are also not dedicated attack helicopters and can probably get replaced by assault version of Z-20s going forward. I'd expect a lot of the older Mi-17 units to be replaced by new Z-8s as they come in. They could also decide that they want even more medium/heavy transport helicopters per army group going forward. That would lead to even more Z-8s/Z-20s.
As an example, this is the LH brigade for the 82nd army group. It has 2 different Z-8 daduis, 1 Z-10 dadui, 1 Z-19 dadui and probably 2 Z-9 dadui. So a wide variety of transport, utility and attack helicopters.
| Central Theatre Command | 82nd Army Aviation Brigade | Z-8B Z-8G Z-9 Z-9W Z-9WA Z-9(EW) Z-10 Z-19 | LH952cxx |
| Western Theatre Command | Xizang LH Brigade (西藏陆航旅)BR>(85th GA) | Mi-171E Mi-17V-7 Z-8G Z-10 Z-20 | LH921cxx |
As time goes on, I expect a lot of the light transport or utility helicopters to get replaced by Z-20s. The Z-9Ws are also not dedicated attack helicopters and can probably get replaced by assault version of Z-20s going forward. I'd expect a lot of the older Mi-17 units to be replaced by new Z-8s as they come in. They could also decide that they want even more medium/heavy transport helicopters per army group going forward. That would lead to even more Z-8s/Z-20s.
antiterror13
Brigadier
antiterror13
Brigadier
I thought WZ-9 that have 1000 kW power, surely WZ-10 has more