Z-10 thread

[Franklin]

where did you get that they had to make compromises to the armour of the Z-10?

Its all over the internet. The first prototypes flew with a much more powerful Ukranian engines. But in the end the decision was taken not to use the Ukranian engines and go for the domestic WZ-9. But the WZ-9 didn't have the power of the Ukranian engines so they had to redesign the helicopter and reduced the armour.

 

[Deino]

Its all over the internet. The first prototypes flew with a much more powerful Ukranian engines. But in the end the dicision was not to use the Ukranian engines and go for the domestic WZ-9. But the WZ-9 didn't have the power of the Ukranian engines so they had to redesign the helicopter and reduced the armour.

Sorry, but that's the first time I've hear that the prototypes used Ukrainian engines ... by the way which one ??? It used initially two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines !

Deino

 

[Franklin]

Sorry, but that's the first time I've hear that the prototypes used Ukrainian engines ... by the way which one ??? It used initially two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines !

Deino

Yeh, I might got that Ukrainian part wrong. But its still non the less true that the first prototypes flew with much more powerful foreign engines and when they switched to the less powerful domestic engines they had to make design changes.

 

[Equation]

Yeh, I might got that Ukrainian part wrong. But its still non the less true that the first prototypes flew with a much more powerful engine and when they switched to the less powerful domestic engines they had to make design changes.

Do you know what design changes that were made that results in a reduction of weight to compensate for a less powerful engine?

 

[Franklin]

Do you know what design changes that were made that results in a reduction of weight to compensate for a less powerful engine?

I remember reading about it but can't find it anymore.

 

[tphuang]

I remember reading about it but can't find it anymore.

Its all over the internet. The first prototypes flew with a much more powerful Ukranian engines. But in the end the decision was taken not to use the Ukranian engines and go for the domestic WZ-9. But the WZ-9 didn't have the power of the Ukranian engines so they had to redesign the helicopter and reduced the armour.

So I think it's importance you don't just relay things that you read on Chinese forums.

The original engines was PWC engine, not Ukrainian. Calling Z-10's armour "compromised" is a very serious accusation. You are basically saying that PLA is putting out an attack helicopter that cannot take hits that are expected out of an attack helo. The Z-10 equipped with WZ-9 engine has a slimmer look compared to earlier Z-10 and is using lighter FLIR/EO targeting tracker with no MMW radar. There is no indication it's currently underpowered based on videos we've seen. It's engine power is about the same as the ones used on Eurocopter Tiger and T-129 Mangusta. Z-10 is about the same size as these 2 helicopters. Z-10 being developed at a later point could theoretically use lighter electronics and material. Yes, the original PWC engines did have higher thrust rating, but since Z-10 was being developed for domestic turboshaft in mind, it's hard to know whether the rotor system fully utilized all that extra power.

Question is does the slimmer look compared to original variant mean less protection or just made better efforts at reducing the weight of a helicopter? Does the armor used in Z-10 become slimmer and lighter while retaining the same level of protection?
Even if it represented lower level of protection, is that sufficient for the expected duties of Z-10?

We really don't know the answer for all 3, but I would say it's highly unlikely PLA would allow Z-10 into its service using insufficient level of protection for its requirements.

As for whether additional power would help if main rotor can utilize it? Of course it would. You can put MMW radar on the top, support additional payload and possibly add even more protection. But we will have to wait for Z-10 upgrades to see.

 

[asif iqbal]

Btw the AH-1 that Pakistan is using have cabin armoured but the rest of the helicopter isn't fully armoured protected and in the whole years of operations they have lost only one AH-1 helo that was serial AH-1F 786-034 on Feb 10 2010 downed and both pilots KIA

 

[Black Shark]

I have doubts that WZ-10 is the best platform for Pakistan at the moment. The WZ-10 is mainly designed to hit tank columns and not to hunt down individuals on foot. The main danger in the Pakistan scenario comes from small arms fire and .50 cal guns and RPG's. They had to make compromises on the armour of the WZ-10 because of the engines. And there is also no IR supression either. So if Pakistan want the WZ-10 it should wait for a upgraded version with heavier armour, more powerful engines and better sensors. Those upgrades can happen relatively quickly all they need is the new engine (WZ-16 or an upgraded WZ-9) and they can dust up the old design and fit their newest sensors on it.

I mean Pakistan isn't doing that bad on the attack helicopter front as it has about 50 AH-1 Cobra's and those could go on for some years.

What exactly is your opinion based on when you claim that WZ-10 can destroy tanks but is incapable to kill single soft targets aka Soldiers/Terrorists? The only thing you need for that role is even existent in MH-60 HAD helicopters, you need only a FLIR a cannon and basic FCS and considering that even Apahes with an intentionally designed cannon for Aeral Suppression is constantly used in COIN operations and this M230 is the least accurate out of all current AH's.

That is actually the oppossite, the A/T-129 have less armor than WZ-10, the MTOW of T-129 does not even reach the empty weight of WZ-10 and both have a rather similiar dimensions with little bit taller and more lengthy fuselage of WZ-10, however this slight difference wouldn't add more than double the empty weight of the plattform if this would be the reason.

Yes, the Engine compartment had to be redesigned after fall of Pratt and Whitney Engines for usage in WZ-10, the current Engine armor platting looks rather thin, but so look all Attack Helicopters for the comperision of the claimed 23mm hits "armor" they constantly rate. That the WZ-10 currently has no IR-suppressors is a good thing, that would be idiotic to design now IR-suppressors optimized for exhaust gases from weaker WZ-9 engines and latter they would not be capable to reduce the gasses to beneath 300°C when they would be feeded with WZ-16 exhaust gasses. The T-129 also has not really optimal IR Suppressors they are highly unlikely optimized for the Poweroutput (temperatures) the HTEC CTS800- 4A produce, they are rather small considering the engine Power and exhaust temperature reaching around 800 - 900°C same as Mi-28N or AH-64D/E and than having such small IR Suppressors.

The Engine compartment and the IR suppressors will be designed and optimized for WZ-16 when they are fielded, anything else would be waste of resources if it is done know for WZ-9 or just designed with assuming specifications of WZ-16 before they are even there.

So I think it's importance you don't just relay things that you read on Chinese forums.

The original engines was PWC engine, not Ukrainian. Calling Z-10's armour "compromised" is a very serious accusation. You are basically saying that PLA is putting out an attack helicopter that cannot take hits that are expected out of an attack helo. The Z-10 equipped with WZ-9 engine has a slimmer look compared to earlier Z-10 and is using lighter FLIR/EO targeting tracker with no MMW radar. There is no indication it's currently underpowered based on videos we've seen. It's engine power is about the same as the ones used on Eurocopter Tiger and T-129 Mangusta. Z-10 is about the same size as these 2 helicopters. Z-10 being developed at a later point could theoretically use lighter electronics and material. Yes, the original PWC engines did have higher thrust rating, but since Z-10 was being developed for domestic turboshaft in mind, it's hard to know whether the rotor system fully utilized all that extra power.

Question is does the slimmer look compared to original variant mean less protection or just made better efforts at reducing the weight of a helicopter? Does the armor used in Z-10 become slimmer and lighter while retaining the same level of protection?
Even if it represented lower level of protection, is that sufficient for the expected duties of Z-10?

We really don't know the answer for all 3, but I would say it's highly unlikely PLA would allow Z-10 into its service using insufficient level of protection for its requirements.

As for whether additional power would help if main rotor can utilize it? Of course it would. You can put MMW radar on the top, support additional payload and possibly add even more protection. But we will have to wait for Z-10 upgrades to see.

Well actually the Z-10 currently is kind of underpowered. For aircrafts there is some need for "Power at disposal" at least to some extent especially when it armed and fueled, the flight characteristics will decrease significantly.

The T-129 currently has Shaft Horsepowers at MTOW of 272 shp/t, the EC-665 Tiger HAD has 222,27 shp/t and the current WZ-9 engines under MTOW give only 167.63 shp/t, it is only 7 shp/t better than AH-64E which has the lowest under MTOW. With WZ-16 engines the WZ-10 would be catapulted from 2nd last place to the first place in Shp/T under MTOW in nominal operation.

 

[tphuang]

What exactly is your opinion based on when you claim that WZ-10 can destroy tanks but is incapable to kill single soft targets aka Soldiers/Terrorists? The only thing you need for that role is even existent in MH-60 HAD helicopters, you need only a FLIR a cannon and basic FCS and considering that even Apahes with an intentionally designed cannon for Aeral Suppression is constantly used in COIN operations and this M230 is the least accurate out of all current AH's.

That is actually the oppossite, the A/T-129 have less armor than WZ-10, the MTOW of T-129 does not even reach the empty weight of WZ-10 and both have a rather similiar dimensions with little bit taller and more lengthy fuselage of WZ-10, however this slight difference wouldn't add more than double the empty weight of the plattform if this would be the reason.

Yes, the Engine compartment had to be redesigned after fall of Pratt and Whitney Engines for usage in WZ-10, the current Engine armor platting looks rather thin, but so look all Attack Helicopters for the comperision of the claimed 23mm hits "armor" they constantly rate. That the WZ-10 currently has no IR-suppressors is a good thing, that would be idiotic to design now IR-suppressors optimized for exhaust gases from weaker WZ-9 engines and latter they would not be capable to reduce the gasses to beneath 300°C when they would be feeded with WZ-16 exhaust gasses. The T-129 also has not really optimal IR Suppressors they are highly unlikely optimized for the Poweroutput (temperatures) the HTEC CTS800- 4A produce, they are rather small considering the engine Power and exhaust temperature reaching around 800 - 900°C same as Mi-28N or AH-64D/E and than having such small IR Suppressors.

The Engine compartment and the IR suppressors will be designed and optimized for WZ-16 when they are fielded, anything else would be waste of resources if it is done know for WZ-9 or just designed with assuming specifications of WZ-16 before they are even there.





Well actually the Z-10 currently is kind of underpowered. For aircrafts there is some need for "Power at disposal" at least to some extent especially when it armed and fueled, the flight characteristics will decrease significantly.

The T-129 currently has Shaft Horsepowers at MTOW of 272 shp/t, the EC-665 Tiger HAD has 222,27 shp/t and the current WZ-9 engines under MTOW give only 167.63 shp/t, it is only 7 shp/t better than AH-64E which has the lowest under MTOW. With WZ-16 engines the WZ-10 would be catapulted from 2nd last place to the first place in Shp/T under MTOW in nominal operation.

Where do you get these WZ-9 thrust level or MTOW numbers?

 

[Black Shark]

Where do you get these WZ-9 thrust level or MTOW numbers?

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The MTOW from globalsec, fas.org and other sides they all state it is around 7500-8000 kg, the actual numbers is hard to come by, since China is fairly secretive about leaking informations and because it is still in development of upgrades and other systems that will have direct effect on the weight of the Helicopter also maybe further weapon integration will also have an impact on the MTOW and empty weight from the new more powerful engines, so that is why i can only specify what i know so far.

1000 kW which is 1341 shp with 8000 kg MTOW and this number will only raise with further upgrades with Radar, more electronics and new engines and rearrangement of the engine compartment room to fit the new engines. 1341/8t = 167.625 shp/t ~ 167.63 shp/t.

If you have more credible sources for MTOW and specific performance of WZ-9 engines in OEI, Take Off and max emergency power then i would be happy to see it.