WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Citizens paying respect to the 800 in the battle of Shanghai. This just goes to show Chinese respect the sacrifice of the brave soldiers.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China honor fallen hero to mark the 75 end of WWII "Forgive but not forget" the sacrifice that China made to defeat the fascist Japan in WWII. CGTN documentary run a lot of good show now available from roku and fire stick One of them is light and haze comparing the attitude of Japan and Germany toward their guilt The other is "Home front"showing the valiant effort of Chinese nation to carry the fight against Japan with all the handicap and shortages. For me it important to remember the sacrifice that 3200 young men from SEA made to assist the war effort. it is an excellent documentary on "Overseas Chinese transport, driver, mechanic volunteer"
Many of them are non chinese there are 55 SEA Indian, 10 Malay, 12 Burmese in the brigade

There is actually 2 roads the old one is Lashio(Burma) to Kunming and Ledo to Yunnan The first one was severed after the KMT blow up the bridge at Nujiang river in 1938 to slow down the Japanese advance . Later on they built another road from Ledo(india) to Yunnan this is the video below.
Like they said amateur talk about strategy, weapon, but professional talk about logistic out of 120000 ton munition that China import the volunteer brigade transport half of it without it China cannot last to resist the Japanese
 
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hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah....

You are wrong .

Japan's intentions with East Asia was to extend the living space for Japanese/ install Puppet regimes which would ultimately be subservient to Japan that would help supply raw materials. While the idea that they should be liberated from colonial possession is noble, Can you say for sure that Japan would've treated them with far more respect than Colonialists ?
Do remember that Japan was/is resource poor and these East Asian nations would've to supply raw materials to the Japanese Empire ( similar to how they supplied raw materials to the Colonial nations of Europe) at cheap rates ( even for free it all depended on the whims of Japanese Diet).

The Japanese aggression with China was far more severe because China was the "Empire" before them. China had History behind it. Chinese culture influenced Japanese and other nations around it not the other way around. Eliminating the Chinese people was important so as to assert Japanese supremacy over all of Asia, therefore.

Can you say with absolute certainty that Japan would've wanted a strong China after Japan won the WW2( after "peacefully liberating and protecting China" ) ?

The answer is clear.IF Japan won the WW2 and had its way -
Japan would've oppressed the Chinese ( maybe much worse than the colonialists because of China's previous position in the world stage ), they'd have imposed the Japanese culture and advocated cultural and even racial supremacy of Japanese over all of East Asian cultures, tried to eliminate/oppress Koreans and made East Asian nations mere tributaries with Japan as the center.

In a sense, all of East Asia would be "liberated" from European colonial oppression and loot. But the plight of the people would be much worse.

My reply is coming very late but there is a lot of content but here it is.

In your opening statement, you mixed Japanese expansion in East Asia with the expansion into the colonies of other empires. It is historically a mistake to do blend the two together into making one very bland and generic conclusion. The chain of events are very different between the two.

Korea and Taiwan are deep during the era of empire building by other empires and was purely eat or be eaten sort of world. So any effort in trying to extend some sort of moralistic argument in these cases falls short because of the circumstances going on around. There should be nothing wrong with Japan standing up for itself and not conceding the taking of other territory by powers outside the region.

Coming up next was Manchuria in 1931. Yes, it was Japanese expansion. Surely the Japanese didn't have to take it. But considering other things going on, was it really that bad of a move? During the late 1910s and 1920s, Manchuria was run by the Fangtian Clique. And Japan supported this clique. The Fangtian Clique formed a natural buffer with the Soviet Union. Japan signed up to the 9 power treaty to respect "China"s borders. So what with the Fangian Clique? They fought in the Chinese Civil War during the warlord era, suffered some major defeats after the leader tried to seize Beijieng. The economy went bad under bad economic policy by the leader. The chief economy advisor abandoned the Fangtian Clique. It completely fell apart by 1928. Seeing an opening, the Soviet Union made some attacks on the remnants in order to reestablish control of a Russian built railway that went across Manchuria from the northwest down to the southeast where Vladivostok was. The KMT was busy in the main body of China proper and so lend no assistance at all against the Soviet excursion. Mind you, it was only 4 years early, in 1925, that the Soviet Union set up a puppet communist regime in Mongolia. So while Japan is setting there, complying with the 9 power treaty to keep the other western powers happy, the Soviet Union is expanding its influence into the area. The Soviet Union wasn't a signatory of the 9 power treaty either by the way. They inserted Chinese communist into China which had to be incorporated into the KMT as part of agreement for getting Soviet aid. A time when the Soviet Comintern was announcing intentions to spread communism all over the world. When all this mentioned, it really doesn't look so surprising that the Japanese would decide to take Manchuria for themselves then. And the invasion of Manchuria was carried out with about only 50,000 troops. Manchuria is a huge area, all taken with just 50,000. Not many casualties on either side really either. And despite the invasion happening 3 years after the total collapse of the Fangtian economy, KMT never moved in. 2 years after the Soviet attack on Manchuria in 1929, no KMT assistance. And again, no KMT assistance when the Japanese invaded. Face it, Manchuria was a sitting duck. Saying all this doesn't go as far as saying Japan was in the right to invade it. But to go as far as saying it was the wrong thing to do after all is known, also seems kind of exaggerated. With all the colonial activities going on in Indonesia, the Philippines, Vietnam, India, the Middle East, all over Africa, was the Japnese invasion of Manchuria really that bad? Give me a break. What made it "bad" was that it meant possibly a stronger Japan and the countires that have made it on top of the hill (US, Great Britain, lesser extent France and Russia) didn't want more competition so that is why it gets called "bad".

The run up to the start of the second Sino-Japanese war in 1937 was also not so one sided on Japan's fault. The KMT and Chinese communists were busy with their civil war, the great march gets going in 1925, finishes up by Spring 1936, a KMT general makes a secret pact with he Chinese communists in summer 1936 and makes do on that pact by December 1936 in what was called the Xi'an incident in which Chinag Kai-shek's generals kidnapped him and took him before the Chinese communists in order to force Chinag Kai-shek to stop the fight against the Chinese communists under slogans like "Chinese don't fight Chinese" and to instead change focus on starting a war against Japan. Remember, this was December 1936. What Japanese invasion was taking place? There was no major war going on. There was some Japanese activities using collaborators to setup friendly Chinese governance in the border areas around Manchuria. That's it. Chiang Kai-shek was very busy in trying to modernize his forces, getting much advice and equipment from the Germans. He of course did want to get Manchuria when he was ready. But he wanted to finish the communist problem first. So he was forced into stopping the campaign against the communist and started preparing for war against Japan. Does this really sound like an intention for an all out sudden invasion to conquer China by Japan? 7 months later, Chinese and Japanese squabbles happen, the Chinese shoot first at the Marco Polo bridge, thus begins increased hostilities in the northern area. While further south in Shanghai, the Chinese moved their soldiers into Shanghai which was violation of international agreements there. I don't really fault them. So don't get me wrong. The Japanese demanded the Chinese NRA to leave the international area in Shanghai. The Chinese refused. The Chinese then attacked the Japanese positions first and they were the first to go as far as using aircraft to bomb Japanese buildings there, although apparently with some friendly fire bombing. The Chinese strategy was to push the Japanese out soon enough with advantage of surprise to to be quick enough about it to prevent enough time for Japanese reinforcements. Japan made the decision to push to Nanjing because they figured the Chinese were not going to stop. Afterall, Chiang Kai-shek wanted to get Manchuria in the end of it all. So total war has been started, so here it goes, the march towards Nanjiang. So after all that is put out, was it really entirely a Japanese plan and sudden invasion into China? No not really. What really seemed to have happened is that the corrupt KMT was struggling to finish off the Chinese communists after the long march and the Chinese communist successfully diverted KMT attention to Japan. The Chinese communist didn't help very much against Japan. Just enough to use as propaganda tool for their recruitment campaign as KMT bleeds in doing the bulk of the fighting.

By the way, the KMT apparently had some major recruitment issues for the war against Japan:

This was a deadly affair in which men were kidnapped for the army, rounded up indiscriminately by press-gangs or army units among those on the roads or in the towns and villages, or otherwise gathered together. Many men, some the very young and old, were killed resisting or trying to escape. Once collected, they would be roped or chained together and marched, with little food or water, long distances to camp. They often died or were killed along the way, sometimes less than 50 percent reaching camp alive. Then recruit camp was no better, with hospitals resembling Nazi concentration camps like Buchenwald.
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Part 2 in following post..
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continuing..

With that then a question arises? How could it be that recruitment was so difficult for the war agasint Japan if Japan was really so much at fault and so much in brutality. Sure brutality was carried out by the Japanese but was it really as widespread as typical MSM articles make it appear? Consider that in 1937 that the rival of Chiang Kai-shek, switched sides to the Japanese. This wasn't just some grunt or low ranking officer. Wang Jingwei was probably the only person closer to Sun Yat-sen than Chinag Kai-shek. And he switch over to the Japanese. The Japanese gave him the top position of the newly formed Chinese government in Japanese controlled areas. If the Japanese were so bad, why would they grant him a full administration? He was permitted to have his on forces even. He did so for China's sake, not Japan's. Who are we to say that, suppose the war ended with collapse of the KMT and/or it's NRA, would Wang Jingwei really have been worse than Chinag Kai-shek or Mao Zedong? How intense would Japanese administration be over the Wang regime? Well a separate national status was given to Manchuria and was aimed as a mixed race nation, hence the different colors on its flag. Or how was Korea or Taiwan during colonial years of Japan? The GDP per capita of both those places was roughly half that of the main Japanese islands. In comparison to the colonies of other empires, that's actually a rather high ratio. Populations of both doubled or so as well. So even if I can congratulate China for emerging from the fires of WW2 as a united and rather large country, let's not exaggerate the supposed nightmare that was planned for Chinese by the Japanese. The nightmare of purges and "re-education" in 1950s communist China and its "great leaps" and "cultural revolution" would be difficult for any entity to top.

So then comes to the last point, Japanese expansion into the colonies. I do hear the argument from the Japanese nationalist side about how they "liberated South East Asia from European colonization" to which, yeah that is an exaggerated argument. Although the point that those areas were colonies, not independent nations, does bear meaning. The Japanese invaded those areas out of Japanese interest. But what is not considered is how the invasion of South East Asia became came about. MSM style arguments assert that the Japanese just wanted to expand territory and that's it. No, there were two main objectives. One was to get the oil. The other was to cut off aid that the US and GB were giving to the KMT. But what also should be considered is that the Japanese were not quick in their decision to invade South East Asia. After the oil embargo was put on Japan by the US in the summer of 1941, the Japanese government tried to get a meeting with FDR but the US side refused it. They just say "get out of China", no details. What does that really mean? Even if the Japanese wanted to get out of that expensive endeavor in order to remove the oil embargo, surely there would be many details to sort through between the leaders. Like.. How soon? To what extent? Does it include Manchuria as well? What should be done with Wang Jingwei and his regime? Once leaving, when could the oil embargo be expected to be lifted? No, the US side made no interest in setting up a meeting. That comes along with the new warship building program and large scale pilot training program, the shifting of the US Pacific fleet from the west coast to Hawaii in 1940, the beginning of developing defense on US possessions in the Pacific, formation of the flying tigers.. the message was obvious that the US had no intention meeting with the Japanese side to work out details. As far as I know, the Japanese did seem willing to leave Vietnam, parts of China, and leave the axis. But the US side wouldn't meet. So there you go, Pearl Harbor was "suddenly and deliberate attacked" spoken by a FDR president that was entirely aware of what was going on since he agreed to lines of credit to the KMT since 1938.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
^^^^

Wow. The biggest and longest justification and defender of Japanese imperialism I've ever seen.

There you have it folks, with mindset like this, and if this represent rest of Japanese population, it is little wonder that Japanese sees themselves as having done nothing wrong during this period. No wonder they think no war crime have ever been committed.
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
^^^^

Wow. The biggest and longest justification and defender of Japanese imperialism I've ever seen.

There you have it folks, with mindset like this, and if this represent rest of Japanese population, it is little wonder that Japanese sees themselves as having done nothing wrong during this period. No wonder they think no war crime have ever been committed.

It should come as no surprise about the complicity of history and the failure of MSM to get the narrative correct. But as you agree, it was a very big post. It had to be separated into two post because of the character limit. Of course a third post could be included for reconfirming the atrocities that were carried out by the Japanese.
WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

But many other points still need to be said and it is not possible to say all those points while at the same time including things about atrocities at the same time. But both have to be considered, not just a one-sided narrative.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Americans too had their point being kind and benevolent to Imperial Japan by dropping just two bombs.
They feel unappreciated, their kindness unrewarded, when not a single day in August is devoted to remember "pure American love" that truly shone upon those two otherwise featureless ordinary cities.
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
Americans too had their point being kind and benevolent to Imperial Japan by dropping just two bombs.
They feel unappreciated, their kindness unrewarded, when not a single day in August is devoted to remember "pure American love" that truly shone upon those two otherwise featureless ordinary cities.

Fortunately the Americans decided to intervene only 5 years later to stop the communist invasion of South Korea, saving it. The difference between the two Koreas today cannot be exaggerated.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Funny you brought up communists in the next country, because you should start with Kuril Islands, right in your home. It seems nobody could lift a finger to stop the Soviet communists. I remember seeing a video where Putin brought in his Japanese dog on a leash to a meeting with Japanese delegates for discussion on Kuril, where he kept them waiting. What else can you do? Bask in the warm tender love of Soviets?
 
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