WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
Funny you brought up communists in the next country, because you should start with Kuril Islands, right in your home. It seems nobody could lift a finger to stop the Soviet communists. I remember seeing a video where Putin brought in his Japanese dog on a leash to a meeting with Japanese delegates for discussion on Kuril, where he kept them waiting. What else can you do? Bask in the warm tender love of Soviets?

Well, you mentioned "only two atomic bombs" on Japan. There was some consideration on the US side to employ nuclear weapons against Chinese targets during the Korean War. So I guess that puts both Japan and China under the what-if threat of being nuked :)
I think Hijiki try to justify Japan aggression against China contrary to the fact. And that is exactly the problem with Japan instead accept the responsibility,contrition and make amed She try to weasel out of the responsibility. So long Japan never accept the responsibility there will no be true reconciliation between Japan and China .

The reason is the American I guess Whereas in Germany they completely root out the Nazis in Japan they didn't purge the fascist completely IN fact Nobosuke Kishi who is Shinzo Abe grandfather was elected as Japan prime minister from 1950's

The American didn't completely rooted out the faschist because of Korean war needing ally and bulwark agains Chinese commie she purposed prevented the true reconciliation between China and Japan If anything they want to prolong the animosity between 2 eg Giving Diaoyu island to Japan etc

Germany did completely acknowledge the guilt and responsibility for starting the war And she anchored the reconciliation with French by submiting themselves to Iron and Coal union that progress into Europen common market and now Euro. Later on she give up territory in Eas Prussia to Poland and Willy brandt start the Oost politic reconciliation with eastern Europe and Russia.

I watch NHK programs there are alot of program about the Hiroshima bomb and how suffering it brought to Japanese people But not much program about the cruelty and devastation,suffering that Japan brought to China or Asia in general.
That say much about how they feel about themselves. Ther Japanese elite completely missed the boat They will be left behind in China led Asia and return to their traditional role on the periphery of Sino world.

I have no problem with Japanese people and I don't believe sin is inherited What their grandfather did has no bearing on the Japanese youth But they have to acknowledge the history and white washing it

Well there are many posts and so much content to reply too but for now, I'll go with some of the points in your post, mostly on your last point about whitewashing and the other point about "not apologizing like the Germans".

For the whitewashing..
well for a high school book, this was quite good.
WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Part of the reason why it's good is because the history gets politicized. Particularly the Nanking massacre. Guilty for what is done. Not guilty for excessive claims by the victim.

Rape of Nanking is often exaggerated. Degree of rape is difficult to assess. I'm sure it happened, along with pillage. It wasn't permitted from above command, but ground soldiers got too far with it. Surely a degree of racial superiority feeling was there. But i think this is defined as unique too much from observers today. What country didn't (and even today, so doesn't) view themselves as superior? Sure its a point to hold against Japanese. But this point is really kind of mute, people back then were racists across the board. What the Japanese certainly were not was what the Nazi's were. Japan had no policy of genocide. Sometimes Chinese react like how Jews react to the Nazis. Going that far is unreasonable and it fails to take into account the whole situation in entirety.

The main thing about Nanking is not the rape or pillaging, its the massacre that followed. But even this point is exaggerated. To start with, a few points before stating some number estimates. First off, after the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949 and throughout the rest of Mao's term, there was no talk about the Nanking Massacre. Mao never acknowledge it. Funny that. If it really was such a national tragedy for China, why didn't Mao ever talk about it? It's really astonishing that someday I think an example of him talking about it will turn up. But I haven't seen it yet. Another point to considered are the estimates of the population in the city of Nanking before and after the 6 week long lock down of the city by Japanese forces. The city had a population of about 800,000 around September or so. The Japanese Army was advancing and so people started to flee. By the time it was December, it is estimated the city's population was about 250,000. So then came the lock down, and then afterwards, by around February, the population was still around 250,000. Last point is that people came back into the city after the end of the lockdown and that the Japanese implemented policy to not loot and not rape for the sake of restoring order in the city and they gave free medical check ups. And yes, later Wang Jingwei would join the Japanese side to administer the Japanese controlled parts of China.

So why say those two points? Because by the 1980s came around, then people started talking about the Nanking Massacre and making up fake causality numbers. The number 300,000 comes out. So its been said that 300,000 have been massacred. That's a lot of people to claim to have been innocently massacred on the spot. But then comes the 1990s, and the 2000s, and heated debates take place, and it becomes obvious that 300,000 innocent civilians massacred is just simply not possible. So then the propagandists change their interpretation of 300,000 to include fallen soldiers or collateral damage and so on. But if doing so, then that doesn't fall in the massacre now does it. Collateral damage is unfortunate but it is not the same as willful intent to massacre standing unarmed people after a battle. And soldiers are soldiers, they don't count in a massacre statistics. And even after that, 300,000 is still too high.

Now defeated soldiers could still count as part of massacred even they were captured or if they even surrendered. But in Nanking is was muddled. CKS gave the order to fight in Nanking to the bitter end. Afterall Nanking was the capital and CKS wanted the highest possible struggle. Soldiers were not allowed to retreat. CKS forces on the other side had orders to shoot anyone that tried to retreat from Nanking. So when the Japanese came in, it was all to obvious that the Chinese soldiers were defeated, but they did not hold up the white flag and come out with their hands up. Instead they put on civilian clothes and scattered into the city's population.

So the massacre that did take place was the hunting down of once formally soldiers that scattered into the city populations. Most likely because the Japanese didn't want to risk a sort of guerrilla warfare inside the city. I of course don't take blame on some Chinese that were thinking of doing that. They were fighting for their city. But that is the basis of the massacre that was to take place. Well I'm sure some of the Chinese boy soldiers were just terrified of everything and wanted to escape being part of the fight. So after the battle, and after the Chinese soldiers scattered into the population, during lock down, the Japanese Army rounded up men that looked able to fight and had evidence of having been a soldier such as imprints of rifle-use on their body and such. They got massacred. The total size of the Chinese defending army is debatable but was something like 100,000 men. So naturally most died fighting, some scattered into the population. Total massacred was probably something like 20,000-40,000, mostly fighting age men from an army that did not surrender and just scattered into the population.

Post to continue in second post.
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continuing...


Its a said story. It's appropriate to have a memorial for it. Its fine if there are any grudges towards Japan about it. But what is not fine are the lies and exaggerations made about it particularly by Chinese posters. Most of the time, they are just repeating hearsay and never take an objective view about their history. Yes it is a very emotional history, but if viewing it in the absence of an objective view, it'll never become possible to reconcile. I reckon a high school book could be more descriptive about the massacre if it wasn't politicized. If the book publishes wanted to include an estimate in degree of massacre, say they put in 50,000-100,000 massacred, then since its not the 300,000, then the Chinese government would protests. And western media that got used to the air waves of victor's glory in writing history gives the the claim of 300,000 a free hand.

As for Germany, they are they ones that built up massive forces on the border with Poland and launched a surprised Blistzkreig on Poland. People have been lazy in equating the course towards war with Imperial Japan as the same as the course of history in Europe and with Nazi Germany. As I have outlined before.. the Second Sino-Japanese war nor the invasion of Manchuria was anything comparable to the massive onslaught of German (and Soviet) Blitzkrieg on Poland; WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos The other point was the Holocaust. There's a long list of bad that Imperial Japan did in the war. Unit 731 would be an example of something even worse than the standard of the hell that is total war. And for that, the Japanese have issued numerous apology statements and tremendous investments in good faith. A necessary course of action in order for Japan to fit back into the international community. But the Holocaust.. do you people really understand what that was? I don't think you posters do. That was an evil of extraordinary proportion. An entire race being slandered and blamed for the source of principle problem and so hated for that via physiologically engineering to the extent of full blown state sponsored systemic genocide. It does not matter of one's gender, of ones age, of ones political opinion, it did not matter... if you were jew, that's it, then you, your family, everyone of the same ethnicity, was rounded up marched into trains by the herd loads and into the massive concentration camps and murdered in systemic fashion, all done as the ultimate solution. Only because of Jewish ethnicity. Others got put into it as well. Imperial Japan had nothing comparable to it. So an "apology and recognition like the Germans" is inappropriate. Maybe some of you people actually would prefer that Japan was something like that so that it can continue to be used as a politicized tool. Well, the PRC now wants to recreate a new world order via its claims on the 9 dash line, on Taiwan, and the Senkaku islands.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Imperial Japan had nothing comparable to it. So an "apology and recognition like the Germans" is inappropriate.

There's so much crap being written, one hardly know where to begin. Perhaps the best is the quote above. I think that said it all.

This makes it no doubt why Japanese sees their conduct is not worth recognition and apologies therefore not forthcoming.

Tell me Mr Whitewash. How would you explain the class A war criminals found guilty by all allies (not just China), and executed somehow got moved to Yakasuni shrine?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
There's so much crap being written, one hardly know where to begin. Perhaps the best is the quote above. I think that said it all.

This makes it no doubt why Japanese sees their conduct is not worth recognition and apologies therefore not forthcoming.

Tell me Mr Whitewash. How would you explain the class A war criminals found guilty by all allies (not just China), and executed somehow got moved to Yakasuni shrine?

I don't think he is Japanese though most likely eastern european who drink too much of Japanese Koolaid. Yes what he post is total crap and VERY LAME EXCUSES, EXCUSES defending indefensible horrible war crime and massacre in the name of Tenno Heika
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's so much crap being written, one hardly know where to begin. Perhaps the best is the quote above. I think that said it all.

This makes it no doubt why Japanese sees their conduct is not worth recognition and apologies therefore not forthcoming.

Tell me Mr Whitewash. How would you explain the class A war criminals found guilty by all allies (not just China), and executed somehow got moved to Yakasuni shrine?

Well context is very important, so I will quote the full context of the little snippet you pulled out in order to take advantage of out-of-context.

As for Germany, they are they ones that built up massive forces on the border with Poland and launched a surprised Blistzkreig on Poland. People have been lazy in equating the course towards war with Imperial Japan as the same as the course of history in Europe and with Nazi Germany. As I have outlined before.. the Second Sino-Japanese war nor the invasion of Manchuria was anything comparable to the massive onslaught of German (and Soviet) Blitzkrieg on Poland; WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos The other point was the Holocaust. There's a long list of bad that Imperial Japan did in the war. Unit 731 would be an example of something even worse than the standard of the hell that is total war. And for that, the Japanese have issued numerous apology statements and tremendous investments in good faith. A necessary course of action in order for Japan to fit back into the international community. But the Holocaust.. do you people really understand what that was? I don't think you posters do. That was an evil of extraordinary proportion. An entire race being slandered and blamed for the source of principle problem and so hated for that via physiologically engineering to the extent of full blown state sponsored systemic genocide. It does not matter of one's gender, of ones age, of ones political opinion, it did not matter... if you were jew, that's it, then you, your family, everyone of the same ethnicity, was rounded up marched into trains by the herd loads and into the massive concentration camps and murdered in systemic fashion, all done as the ultimate solution. Only because of Jewish ethnicity. Others got put into it as well. Imperial Japan had nothing comparable to it. So an "apology and recognition like the Germans" is inappropriate. Maybe some of you people actually would prefer that Japan was something like that so that it can continue to be used as a politicized tool. Well, the PRC now wants to recreate a new world order via its claims on the 9 dash line, on Taiwan, and the Senkaku islands.

As for the Japanese class A war crminals.. has any of you actually looked up who they were? Some I don't particularly mind the bad title such as Tojo or Doihara, but Shigenori Togo? What did he do to get slapped with "Class-A war criminal"? Surely Chaing Kai-shek and FDR were more qualified for "Class-A war criminal" than Togo.
 
Last edited:

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think he is Japanese though most likely eastern european who drink too much of Japanese Koolaid. Yes what he post is total crap and VERY LAME EXCUSES, EXCUSES defending indefensible horrible war crime and massacre in the name of Tenno Heika

They aren't excuses. They are a full context of history. If made very simple, for example.. Xi'an incident was December 1936 while the Second Sino-Japanese War did not start until Summer of 1937. A very basic fact that gets overlooked. If basic facts would get acknowledge, then there would be no need to appear to be defending or giving justification to Japan's actions in the war. Today's Japan is much more preferable to me if you must know. But the past gets tied to interpretation today so things need to be stated.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
@Hendrik_2000

In our Chinese association, we've about half of the chinese coming from nanyang countries, mainly Malaysian. Malaysians can speak about four Chinese language, Mandarin, Cantonese, Fokkinese and Hakka. And now English. It's amazing and there are the hardest working people I know. Also very patriotic to be Chinese even though they maybe third of forth generations Chinese.

You forgot Malay so 5 or 6 languages. Large portion of Malaysian Chinese are peranakan for whom the native language is Malay Mr Kho Haisheng is most likely peranakan he look like one and the lady who push his wheel cart most likely his daughter wear sarong and kebaya. Peranakan meant local born out of marriage between Chinese men and Non muslim Malay women like Iban, Balinese, Batak,Javanese in the late Qing dynasty 1880's So they are are like 7 or 8th generation removed from China. But only 1 generation the latter peranakan married among themselves or with Chinese. They still cling to Chinese value and tradition more so than the late comer who come in 1920's
Melaka,Trengganu, Kelantan,Pulau Pinang are all the bastion of peranakan.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
As for the Japanese class A war crminals.. has any of you actually looked up who they were? Some I don't particularly mind the bad title such as Tojo or Doihara, but Shigenori Togo? What did he do to get slapped with "Class-A war criminal". Surely Chaing Kai-shek and FDR were more qualified for "Class-A war criminal" than Togo.


There we have it folks. This one sentence summed up the arrogance of our member here.

Never mind that the best minds and lawyers and international justice system have found these men guilty of atrocities that warrant them to be classified as class A war criminals. Our friend here disagree and thinks they shouldn't be classified as such. But isn't this revisionism? It is just the type of revisionism that the world is accusing Japan of doing. So our member here is just acting like the Japanese which is what people are saying as disgusting behaviour!

After saying that, he agrees that some of them should be classified as class A war criminals. But made no effort of explaining why are they interned In Yakasuni shrine?
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
They aren't excuses. They are a full context of history. If made very simple, for example.. Xi'an incident was December 1936 while the Second Sino-Japanese War did not start until Summer of 1937. A very basic fact that gets overlooked. If basic facts would get acknowledge, then there would be no need to appear to be defending or giving justification to Japan's actions in the war. Today's Japan is much more preferable to me if you must know. But the past gets tied to interpretation today so things need to be stated.

What you blabbering is an alternative history mouth by Japanese right wing and or fascist who instead of repent and contrition posted "imaginery history" to absolve their horrible crime against humanity and hide their heinous crime. The japanese war crime is well documented and supported by mountain of evidence oral, written or eye witness account So it is irrefutable ! capicci!
 

hijiki

Junior Member
Registered Member
There we have it folks. This one sentence summed up the arrogance of our member here.

Never mind that the best minds and lawyers and international justice system have found these men guilty of atrocities that warrant them to be classified as class A war criminals. Our friend here disagree and thinks they shouldn't be classified as such. But isn't this revisionism? It us just the type of revisionism that the world is accusing Japan of doing. So our member here is just acting like the Japanese which is what people are saying as disgusting behaviour!

After saying that, he agrees that some if them should be classified as class A war criminals. But made no effort of explaining why are they interned In Yakasuni shrine?

Well for your last point, it's just Yasukuni Shrine, a place for the war dead. It's not anywhere else in Japanese society. It's not like Japanese people hold up portrait images of Tojo like how people do that with portraits of Stalin, or put Mao's face on every currency bill, or how fanboys wear swastikas at cheap demonstrations. So in some way, them being at Yasukuni is sort of over complained really. Although people like Tojo at Yasukuni could theoretically serve as a launch pad of greater acceptance and a more justifying sort narrative and propaganda but that risk exist in most countries in their own national forms. The Tokyo Tribunal was a victors write history court. The basis for "Class A War crime" was for being "instrumental for the complete fault by Japan in starting WW2". But now as what a proper look at history shows, the Chinese communist, Chinag Kai-shek, and FDR was just as much of a cause for the start of that war. But whatever on it, I really don't dwell on it, but points have to be made sometimes. In the end, out of the major world powers in the race to be top power of the world.. out of Great Britain, the US, Russia/Soviet, Nazi Germany, Commie China, Imperial Japan, France.. the US coming out on top isn't so bad.. all things considered. Winners write the history for the masses. If Imperial Japan had won, it would have its own BS narrative in central acceptance. So in the end, I sometimes don't like pushing too hard with my conclusions.
 
Last edited:
Top