would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier group?

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

kliu0 said:

When you talk about Air Superiority the USA has the upper hand, with more advanced fighters both technologically and numerically. The Chinese even though have new fighters, they are mostly Russian exports and reproductions. If China was to build more new fighters, they would have to wait for some Russian fighter parts and Russian approval to build more fighters.

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It appears you are seriously misguided about the relative balance of military strength in the theater.

I'd suggest you do some research and meditate on why I specifically mentioned the AWACS and WS-10A as the most significant milestones that put an end to any talk about "air assaults over China". If you're lucky one of the very knowledgeable members of our forum may educate you further.

PLA was in one stage of development from about 1997 to 2005. Beginning in 2006, a lot of very advanced systems have been introduced, and they are clearly designed to work together.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

Roger604 said:

I'd suggest you do some research and meditate on why I specifically mentioned the AWACS and WS-10A as the most significant milestones that put an end to any talk about "air assaults over China". If you're lucky one of the very knowledgeable members of our forum may educate you further.

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No thanks, I have no interest in educating noobs. The threads are all out there (in here), Kilu0 doesn't need to waste anybody's time in order to get the latest "developments" (literally).

And please, lads, enough of that talk about the U.S. or Japan striking Chinese mainland; IT OPENS THE DOOR FOR CHINA TO WAGE AN ALL OUT, AND I MEAN ALL OUT WAR WITH THE U.S., WHERE NOTHING IS OFF LIMITS, INCLUDING "DIRTY" WEAPONS.

The U.S. may scream and yell about Taiwan, but there will be no war over Taiwan. The U.S. simply has nothing to gain and too much to lose.

Imagine China, Russia, N. Korea, Iran, all decided to call the U.S. bluff AT THE SAME TIME. And yes, that's the only way "they" will go bump with the U.S., all together at the same time, not one at a time, they ain't that dumb.

Now, those 8 aircraft carriers suddenly don't seem so many?

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

You may think about me anyway you want. But we'll wait and see what happens if something escalates. We'll see.....

BTW I spend hours everyday looking on the internet looking at Chinese military equipment, I'm not stupid and not noob.

BTW Roger604, I was referring to once they launch missiles like Tomahawks to take out defenses then they go in and send fighters.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

kliu0 said:

BTW I spend hours everyday looking on the internet looking at Chinese military equipment, I'm not stupid and not noob.

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See, the problem is when you say something like "If China was to build more new fighters, they would have to wait for some Russian fighter parts and Russian approval to build more fighters" you tend lose alot of credibility in here...no offence personally.

The media, even military dedicated media like Jane's and such, always gives too much credit to Russia for China's military modernisation. Yes Russia helped along the way, but they just dont want to admit China can now build weapons as good as, if not better than, Russian equipment.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

What I'm saying is based upon my information sourced from various military media websites, if credibility is a problem, I'm not even gonna go on this thread.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

daveman said:

The U.S. may scream and yell about Taiwan, but there will be no war over Taiwan. The U.S. simply has nothing to gain and too much to lose.

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It's not so much gaining from intervening as having plenty to lose from not getting involved. It would seriously undermine US promises of military assistance to other countries and thus weaken US foreign policy/diplomacy overall. Standing it out would also fully open up the entire Pacific (even more than now) to Chinese military operations.

Imagine China, Russia, N. Korea, Iran, all decided to call the U.S. bluff AT THE SAME TIME.

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What if they don't? But more importantly, if they did then there would be a large number of other countries drawn in as well - those states would have to launch military operations (I guess that's what you meant) against someone.

You're essentially describing World War III, and the US wouldn't sit that one out.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

I think any ballistic missiles is a threat to a fixed target. It's like throwing a bomb, whether it's accurate or not, it's still a threat. Attacking naval ships is harder because the targets are moving. It's easier to attack fixed targets, such as islands. Again, whether the missile will hit the target or not, it will hit something.

To me, ballistic missiles are still the cheapest and the most dangerous weapons of all.

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The problem with using ballistic missiles against ships is not only the accuracy, but that the AEGIS is designed with TBM-defense in mind. Intercepting missiles on a ballistic trajectory is much, much easier than intercepting cruise missiles and naval attack missiles. China is rumored to be developing a anti-ship ballistic missile with both a guidance system and the supposed ability to maneuver in such a way as to greatly increase the difficulty of interception. However, no one has actually seen the missile let alone know of its capabilities, so it could be just a load of Pentagon BS. Furthermore, a guided ballistic missile, even if it could get through AEGIS would have to contend with the dense EW environment protecting the US fleet.

Furthermore, in today's war its not exactly good if the missile, "hits something." What if you're hoping to take out a major radar installation outside of Taipei and end up lobbing several tons of high explosives into a Taiwanese hospital? You have just turned world opinion completely against you.

Well being a very useful weapon, the ballistic missile has its drawbacks, and like any weapons system is designed to fill a certain role. There is no fix-all weapon that can be useful in any situation.

BTW Roger604, I was referring to once they launch missiles like Tomahawks to take out defenses then they go in and send fighters.

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Well, the critical air defense sites on the Chinese coast will be protected with suites armed with CIWS and the necessary radars designed with cruise missile protection in mind. The PLA has been aware of the cruise missile threat since the first Gulf War, and has been taking measures to upgrade its air defense assets with that particular threat in mind. Am I saying that the PLA is invulnerable to the Tomahawk? Of course not, but its key air defense sites will be protected by multilayered defenses designed specifically to counter this threat.

All in all, it is a much wiser strategy for the USN to keep a distance from the Chinese coastline and fight from a position where they enjoy a great advantage. Just by deploying AWACs and EW will act as a great force multiplier for the ROCAF, and with the use of AEGIS destroyers and F-18s to intercept and pursue PLAAF aircraft, the air battle over will go decidedly in the favor of Taiwanese forces.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

FriedRiceNSpice said:

The problem with using ballistic missiles against ships is not only the accuracy, but that the AEGIS is designed with TBM-defense in mind.

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That's ridiculous. AEGIS was introduced in the 80's. The TBM capability is IOC but not deployed.

You realize that SM-3 works only exo-atmosphere, it doesn't work if the warhead has already re-entered the atmosphere.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Furthermore, a guided ballistic missile, even if it could get through AEGIS would have to contend with the dense EW environment protecting the US fleet.

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Do you even know what that means? And please explain exactly it is supposed to affect the warhead's guidance?

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Well, the critical air defense sites on the Chinese coast will be protected with suites armed with CIWS and the necessary radars designed with cruise missile protection in mind. The PLA has been aware of the cruise missile threat since the first Gulf War, and has been taking measures to upgrade its air defense assets with that particular threat in mind. Am I saying that the PLA is invulnerable to the Tomahawk? Of course not, but its key air defense sites will be protected by multilayered defenses designed specifically to counter this threat.

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The right answer is not CIWS, the right answer is OTH radars, Y-8 patrols and AEW. Maybe satellites and shipborne radar will play a big role.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

All in all, it is a much wiser strategy for the USN to keep a distance from the Chinese coastline and fight from a position where they enjoy a great advantage. Just by deploying AWACs and EW will act as a great force multiplier for the ROCAF, and with the use of AEGIS destroyers and F-18s to intercept and pursue PLAAF aircraft, the air battle over will go decidedly in the favor of Taiwanese forces.

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Sheesh.... you are just using all this jargon without really knowing that they mean. What AWACS? How are destroyers going to "intercept" PLA aircraft?

Have you considered how much assets China can put in theater? How does F-16 A/B and F-18's stack up against J-10's and J-11's? Have you considered PLA SAM coverage from the mainland right up to Taiwan's coast?

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

You realize that SM-3 works only exo-atmosphere, it doesn't work if the warhead has already re-entered the atmosphere.

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We're not talking ICBMs here... the PLA will be using SRBMs only, which do not leave the atmosphere.

That's ridiculous. AEGIS was introduced in the 80's. The TBM capability is IOC but not deployed.

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Sorry, I meant the recent upgrades.

And please explain exactly it is supposed to affect the warhead's guidance?

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It means the USN will try to scramble either 1) radar signals to and from the missile 2) signals from the warhead to GPS/Beidou/GLONASS or 3) guidance signals from other sources.

The right answer is not CIWS, the right answer is OTH radars, Y-8 patrols and AEW. Maybe satellites and shipborne radar will play a big role.

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Well, that was why I specifically detailed that the use of the, "necessary," radar will be used. Sorry that I was lazy and didn't specify exactly what type of radar? And how is satellites going to play a big role? I hope you mean the use of satellites to detect the USN submarines that will be launching the missiles since they sure as hell are not going to do anything about the missiles itself. I was just mentioning CIWS since its a cost-effective fool-proof way to destroy the cruise missiles.

What AWACS? How are destroyers going to "intercept" PLA aircraft?

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Hawkeyes... while not the best its still better than relying on just what the ROCAF has. Destroyers will serve as SAM, while the intercepting is going to be done by F-18s... obviously.

How does F-16 A/B and F-18's stack up against J-10's and J-11's? Have you considered PLA SAM coverage from the mainland right up to Taiwan's coast?

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The fight is greatly in the PLAAF's advantage if it takes place in the strait itself. That is why I was advocating for the USN to fight over Taiwan itself. Earlier, I was arguing that the USN cannot gain control of the strait and must therefore be reduced to a support role on the other side of the island. The PLAAF can hold air superiority over the strait, but once it approaches the Taiwan coast the USN starts to hold the advantage. There, the PLA's SAM coverage fades, and instead will be under the cover of AEGIS once further inland and Taiwanese SAMs. Also the USN and ROCAF will enjoy the benefit of proximity. Lastly, the USN and by extension ROCAF has an advantage in electronic warfare technology.

J-10s and J-11's have superior performance and maneuverability, but USN aircraft enjoy an advantage in EW and avionics.

Sheesh.... you are just using all this jargon without really knowing that they mean

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I've been on this forum for over three years... I know full well what I am talking about.

Re: would MLRS and PGMs be a deterrent force in the taiwan strait against carrier gro

Mods note>> Gents..please keep the level of your discussion civil.

Roger604 posted;

That's ridiculous. AEGIS was introduced in the 80's. The TBM capability is IOC but not deployed.

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The AEGIS system has been constantly updated an improved upon since it's inception.

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In 2006, cruisers will begin the process of being upgraded through the Cruiser Modernization program. Cruiser Modernization is a cost effective means to sustain or increase force structure and deploy new vital capabilities sooner. All cruisers in the fleet with the exception of CGs 47-51, will eventually go through modernization. Cruiser Modernization will improve warfighting capability by providing systems upgrades including Cooperative Engagement Capability and the AN/SQQ-89A(V)15 with Multi-Function Towed Array. Cruiser Modernization also provides a viable platform for future Ballistic Missile Defense missions. A comprehensive service life extension work package, which includes the All-Electric Modification, SMARTSHIP upgrades, hull, mechanical, and electrical system upgrades, and a Type Commanders maintenance work-package, is included in modernization.

CG modernization begins in FY 2006. The first ship scheduled to undergo modernization is USS Cape St. George (CG 71). The remaining 21 baseline 2, 3 and 4 cruisers have varying capabilities. The cruiser conversion program will result in all 22 ships having a common warfighting baseline. Improvements include quality of life initiatives, better weapon systems, SmartShip upgrades, remote monitoring capabilities, force protection upgrades, optimal manning, open architecture, and many other improvements.

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