So what your saying is that the US has no reconassaince sources at the moment and they run straight into the trap? You froget that most of the weapons china will use to defeat the CVBG will be ex soviet weapons. The Aegis was designed to defend a saturated supersonic soviet missle strike. China is no where near that level yet. And the Yuan is not the worlds most advanced ssk as some of you imply. Based on many sources it is a cross between the kilo and the song. The kilo was great in its day but now it is outclassed by the european ssks and the colins class of australia. Second of all no naval or airial strike will come within range to even launch their missiles. They would have to face the airwing of the carrier and the USAF from nearby US bases. During a wartime situation there is no lone CVBG operating. There would be at least four cvbgs operating in unison as with the case in the Iraqi war. That would simply overwhelm china.
USN fearful of PLAN subs
- Thread starter bd popeye
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So what your saying is that the US has no reconassaince sources at the moment and they run straight into the trap? You froget that most of the weapons china will use to defeat the CVBG will be ex soviet weapons. The Aegis was designed to defend a saturated supersonic soviet missle strike. China is no where near that level yet. And the Yuan is not the worlds most advanced ssk as some of you imply. Based on many sources it is a cross between the kilo and the song. The kilo was great in its day but now it is outclassed by the european ssks and the colins class of australia. Second of all no naval or airial strike will come within range to even launch their missiles. They would have to face the airwing of the carrier and the USAF from nearby US bases. During a wartime situation there is no lone CVBG operating. There would be at least four cvbgs operating in unison as with the case in the Iraqi war. That would simply overwhelm china.
Well, if by some miracle the carrier group would just sail into the PLAN sub force waiting in ambush, then yeah, they could be extremely silent and could have pretty good chances at engaing the carrier itself. But you'd need to know where the CBG wants to go and the americans would need to go from their harbor to that desired target area in a straight line. Even without that, there would be planes and helicopters going in front periodically listening whats in front the group, not to mention the two SSNs checking what's in front. Such a chinese ambush could not be total, americans would know there's danger in front before the torpedoes can be launched. only question here is how much in front the CBG would the waiting subs be discovered. Ships would need to turn or slow down, which takes more time than for the subs to go to their max speed (Around 20 knots). of course, when subs go that speed, it's basically a turkey shoot for the americans and the only question is how many miles do subs have to cross till they get in good firing range and how many subs there are, because they will be dying by the minute.
good thing for chinese is that in order to make the whole fleet keep out of range in the future all they need to do is prevent the carrier from operating the aircraft. hitting one side and listing it, making unable to operate the aircraft would be enough. If we're talking bout an air attack on the carrier you'd most probably have to burn through some 45 or so hornets to get to the carrier anyway, so with such losses the whole CBG would keep at a distance.
good thing for chinese is that in order to make the whole fleet keep out of range in the future all they need to do is prevent the carrier from operating the aircraft. hitting one side and listing it, making unable to operate the aircraft would be enough. If we're talking bout an air attack on the carrier you'd most probably have to burn through some 45 or so hornets to get to the carrier anyway, so with such losses the whole CBG would keep at a distance.
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
you are such an american stackpiV!!! do you watch the history channel too much?
the ex-soviet arsenal is quite capable, and china has it's own abilities. stop thinking america has such an amazing military with aegis and so, and stop thinking russian equipment is all china uses.
you've been propagandad!
the ex-soviet arsenal is quite capable, and china has it's own abilities. stop thinking america has such an amazing military with aegis and so, and stop thinking russian equipment is all china uses.
you've been propagandad!
tphuang said:
Several problems with that. USN wouldn't go anywhere near the strait. Carrier air wing alone has range of 1000 km, tomahawks even more so. So you'd have to park the subs in a huge, huge ring. Even putting ALL the subs to such a task, including old romeos and such, that'd be rather pushing. Trying to guess to which area the CBG might come seems a better alternative, but like i said, even that's a long stretch.
All the subs in china's aresenal are not equipped with klub or/and related missiles. But even assuming most modern dozen or so are equipped, you need additional targeting source to guide the missiles. some passive sonars on the surface of the sea will give you only a broad position, youd be firing all those missiles half blind. but i guess, yeah, enough number to cover a large enough area, sure, it's possible. only thing is there's not enough launching platform to mount the attack of necessary size. attack of some 60 or so missiles won't get through the CBG defences.
tphuang said:
Yeah, and you can find data for various CBG ships, including the carrier itself to range from 30 to 32 knots. All i'm saying is if the subs are going at thier top speed, be that 20 or 22 knots they better be mighty close to torpedo firing range as they'll lighting like xmas trees on USN detection screens and it'd be only a matter of how fast the americans can destroy enough subs. Not to mention that at such speed the batteries last very very short, so it'd basically be a one way suicide mission. But then again, that's what i've been saying all along.
If you're to target a CBG with a massive sub attack, sure, you might succeed. but rest assured it'd be a one way trip. Oh, and to the person laughing at diesel electrical subs versus nuclear, the laugh is on you. USN admitted that improved Kilo class and related subs are very hard to find when running on batteries, quieter than nuclear. (they didnt specify if they meant they were quieter than their own, USN nuclear subs
)MIGleader said:
That's not necessarily true. Americans are perfectly willing to supprt their government in a limited duration war. The US army is an all-volunteer force, you know what you're getting into when you signed up.
To describe a situation where the public opinion would turn against the government, say if the situation in Iraq drags on for 10 years with nothing to gain & body bags flying home every week, army recruitment falls and the government impose the DRAFT, then you'd find the US public turning against government policy and start burning their draft cards on street corners.
As for impact of sinking a few ships, the USN is not the Royal Navy. If the UK had refused to return HK and sent the royal navy to intervene, then yes, sinking a few major surface combatants and damaging a carrier will put an end to the Royal Navy task force.
But the USN is not that small. Losing a few surface ships and even a carrier will only a minor dent in its total strength. The PLAN cannot compete against the USN by quality or quantity.
MIGleader said:
I've been reading this thread and some how now the PRC and the USA are at war.
..I pray it never happens.The PLAN as it is right now could not sink a Burke. Oh a missile may get through. But I don't think so. The USN's defenses are just too capable. Someone mentioned positioning PLAN subs by the Straights of Tiawain to lay in wait for the US fleet. Ludricrous
. Did you know that USN P-3's patrol the Pacific with vitual impunity? You know about of course the US sattilite intelligence? Not to mention all the US ESSM,ECM ETC.... Did you know that an EA-6B ECM can disrupt all sorts of electronic signals for hundreds of miles? That means the PRC missiles would go haywire..Oh I forgot the USN ablity to despense countless rounds of CHAFF..Oh yea the USAF would also help out. You know tankers,bombers F-15's ETC....Would the US populace turn against the War if casulities were inccured? Not at first. a few years later..yes. At first the Americans hearts would harden. The Americans would be crying for blood..
As things stand right now,2 September 2005, the forces of the PLAN/PLAAF could not defeat the USN/USAF. Period.
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