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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Word is just out from the US Army improved turbine programme

AH-64E is not the last Apache on the drawing board is the AH-64F model

A 3,000shp (2,240kW) engine is under development

A higher top speed

This is done by decreasing drag by introducing a retractable landing gear

And adding a tail rotor that can turns by 90 degrees to provide forward thrust so basically using the a tilt rotor kind of technology
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Word is just out from the US Army improved turbine programme

AH-64E is not the last Apache on the drawing board is the AH-64F model

I beat you to this by months
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/us-military-news-thread-188-1547.html#post293969
The design would also include extended wing stubs to generate lift. the modifications would demand such extensive alterations that is might as well be a totally knew airframe.
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Aviation Week
Northrop To Upgrade U.S. Army UH-60L Cockpits

AWIN First
Graham Warwick
Fri, 2014-08-15 10:45
Northrop Grumman has won a contract to upgrade 700-900 U.S. Army Sikorsky UH-60L Black Hawk utility helicopters, beating out teams including Elbit Systems, Lockheed Martin and Rockwell Collins.

The upgrade with give the older UH-60Ls a glass cockpit with electronic displays replicating those of the in-production UH-60M. Upgraded Black Hawks will be designated UH-60Vs.

The contract is a major win for Northrop Grumman, which has been aggressively pursuing an open-systems approach to avionics, building on its experience with the mission computer for the U.S. Marine Corps’ Bell AH-1Z and UH-1Y helicopters.

The company says its avionics system for the UH-60L is aligned with the Pentagon-led Future Airborne Capability Environment (FACE), a set of standards enabling software portability and reuse. This will support rapid insertion of off-the-shelf hardware and software, Northrop says.

The system features a centralized processor with a partitioned, modular operational flight program that enables capabilities to be added as software-only modifications, reducing the cost and time required to upgrade the helicopter.

In a departure from most procurements, Northrop says it is providing full, unlimited government-purpose rights to technical data and software, allowing the Army to compete future upgrades and integrate third-party software into the system.

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Thanks Jeff...

... as I understand it, the 2013 DOT&E reported the LPD 17 San Antonio class as

“… not operationally effective, not operationally suitable, and not survivable in a hostile environment.”

I understand you said that the Mistral (which cost 25 % of a LPD 17) as suspect because it is built to commercial standard but a MILSPEC vessel like the LPD 17 seems to have its own share of questionable suitability in a hostile environment.

How would you reconcile these issues?
Well, I am sure it may come across as purely partisan...but it is not.

This administration and almost all of its appointed personnel in the various agencies are the most rabidly politically oriented personnel I have seen in my life time.

I have seen, personally, in my own agency, so-called scientific studies concocted to prove a preconceived notion, rather than to test that thesis to see if it is even correct, and then proceed forward to funding on this pure junk science. They do this to placate political constituencies, and then waist billions of dollars awarding contracts to their own supporters for work that is not needed. This is rampant in the US right now, across the board, including he DOD.

When people attempt to blow the whistle (and I have done so), despite laws to the contrary, two things happen

1) There is backlash and retaliation...but very carefully. Most end up pigeon holed in dead end jobs until they retire.
2) Endless investigations ensue that purposely take years and lead nowhere while the projects in question go forward.

In short, I do not trust their findings, but rely rather on senior NCOs I know and officers I trust that I have spoken with.

Do the San Antonio class have issues? Yes they have. They were a new design, with new integrated combat systems and new methods of accomplishing tasks. Most (but not all) of those have been addressed and ironed out and the crews are learning to effectively operate and fight their ships. The hull itself is proving to be a good and stable platform to these professionals. That is why that hull design is being seriously considered for the LSD role and he BMD role.

Anyhow, that is how I explain it and proceed forward in this environment.

As it is, in any hotly contested, amphibious or air assault conflict, the gators are going to be at risk. It is part of the awful calculus of war. The US has not really had that particular scenario since WW II and perhaps the Korean War. But the professional planners and designers are not unaware of the risks and have planned and designed accordingly.

The Falklands War was probably the latest example of a hotly contested such operation in modern warfare...and the UK took some serious losses. But they also planned well for those contingencies and had adequate reserves and defenses to proceed forward, despite the losses, and get the job done.

You cannot contemplate such campaigns with any thought that you cannot lose vessels...some of them critical.

In today's environment, we have appointed...and, sadly, politically promoted individuals...who use the wrong metrics and reasoning to end up canceling or rejecting perfectly good designs, for political purposes. IMHO, the F-22 decision is a prime example...despite all the wrangling now on how what was clearly a premature, and even reckless, decision was still somehow justified.

Oh well, such is life.

Every professional sailor I have spoken with, and based on my own engineering experience, would rather be on a Wasp, San Antonio, or Harpers Ferry, then a Mistral in a hot conflict. IOW, on a combat MILSPEC design than an "augmented" commercial one.

Not because the French personnel are not squared away and will do their best, or are not proud professionals. But because the basic deign of the former was based on the premise of being in such a conflict and being designed and paid for to take the punishment. The latter was not.

Hope that helps. Each has to arrive at their own conclusions.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Thanks Jeff for the useful information.

A typical ARG comprises of a LHD (Wasp class, 3 LCAC), LPD (San Antonio class, 2 LCAC or 1 LCU), and an LSD (Whidbey Island class, 4 LCAC) which provides a total of 9 LCACs. The plan is to effectively replace a platform that currently accounts for 44 % of the LCAC seaborne delivery capacity. A downsized San Antonio hull planned replacement of 1 for 1 is unlikely to fill that capacity unless the future force structure dictates a different mix of delivery assets.

Additionally, more problematic is that as I understand it, the 2013 DOT&E reported the LPD 17 San Antonio class as

“… not operationally effective, not operationally suitable, and not survivable in a hostile environment.”

I understand you said that the Mistral (which cost 25 % of a LPD 17) as suspect because it is built to commercial standard but a MILSPEC vessel like the LPD 17 seems to have its own share of questionable suitability in a hostile environment. How would you reconcile these issues?

Commercial Standard for Mistral, cheap, but for damage ( impacts of missiles ...) necessarily much less resistant as US AA Ships who are true warships with compartmentalization, several cable networks etc ...
And LPD 17 is stealth also but BPC are very polyvalent.

In more Mistral are virtually unarmed they depend on their escort.

I don't know if UK AA ships are build to military standard.

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Equation

Lieutenant General
Commercial Standard for Mistral, cheap, but for damage ( impacts of missiles ...) necessarily much less resistant as US AA Ships who are true warships with compartmentalization, several cable networks etc ...
And LPD 17 is stealth also but BPC are very polyvalent.

In more Mistral are virtually unarmed they depend on their escort.

I don't know if UK AA ships are build to military standard.

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True, by why does it cost so much? For another one billion dollar or less one could get a US made LHD or LPD that will eventually cost less to operate because it doesn't required as much escorts to be protected.
 

Brumby

Major
Commercial Standard for Mistral, cheap, but for damage ( impacts of missiles ...) necessarily much less resistant as US AA Ships who are true warships with compartmentalization, several cable networks etc ...
And LPD 17 is stealth also but BPC are very polyvalent.

In more Mistral are virtually unarmed they depend on their escort.

I don't know if UK AA ships are build to military standard.

For complete
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I understand that the third Mistral was built using commercial process and hence civilian certification was followed. This in my view is different from and does not address whether the Mistral was built according to military standards. If the contractual terms and specs of the build is military standard, then anything less whether commercial process or not will not be honouring the contractual terms. For example, if HS-100 grade or greater steel specification is in the contract then the build has to follow the specs regardless of whether a commercial process was followed. Does anybody know the details?
 

Brumby

Major
Well, I am sure it may come across as purely partisan...but it is not.

This administration and almost all of its appointed personnel in the various agencies are the most rabidly politically oriented personnel I have seen in my life time.

I have seen, personally, in my own agency, so-called scientific studies concocted to prove a preconceived notion, rather than to test that thesis to see if it is even correct, and then proceed forward to funding on this pure junk science. They do this to placate political constituencies, and then waist billions of dollars awarding contracts to their own supporters for work that is not needed. This is rampant in the US right now, across the board, including he DOD.

When people attempt to blow the whistle (and I have done so), despite laws to the contrary, two things happen

1) There is backlash and retaliation...but very carefully. Most end up pigeon holed in dead end jobs until they retire.
2) Endless investigations ensue that purposely take years and lead nowhere while the projects in question go forward.

In short, I do not trust their findings, but rely rather on senior NCOs I know and officers I trust that I have spoken with.

Do the San Antonio class have issues? Yes they have. They were a new design, with new integrated combat systems and new methods of accomplishing tasks. Most (but not all) of those have been addressed and ironed out and the crews are learning to effectively operate and fight their ships. The hull itself is proving to be a good and stable platform to these professionals. That is why that hull design is being seriously considered for the LSD role and he BMD role.

Anyhow, that is how I explain it and proceed forward in this environment.

As it is, in any hotly contested, amphibious or air assault conflict, the gators are going to be at risk. It is part of the awful calculus of war. The US has not really had that particular scenario since WW II and perhaps the Korean War. But the professional planners and designers are not unaware of the risks and have planned and designed accordingly.

The Falklands War was probably the latest example of a hotly contested such operation in modern warfare...and the UK took some serious losses. But they also planned well for those contingencies and had adequate reserves and defenses to proceed forward, despite the losses, and get the job done.

You cannot contemplate such campaigns with any thought that you cannot lose vessels...some of them critical.

In today's environment, we have appointed...and, sadly, politically promoted individuals...who use the wrong metrics and reasoning to end up canceling or rejecting perfectly good designs, for political purposes. IMHO, the F-22 decision is a prime example...despite all the wrangling now on how what was clearly a premature, and even reckless, decision was still somehow justified.

Oh well, such is life.

Every professional sailor I have spoken with, and based on my own engineering experience, would rather be on a Wasp, San Antonio, or Harpers Ferry, then a Mistral in a hot conflict. IOW, on a combat MILSPEC design than an "augmented" commercial one.

Not because the French personnel are not squared away and will do their best, or are not proud professionals. But because the basic deign of the former was based on the premise of being in such a conflict and being designed and paid for to take the punishment. The latter was not.

Hope that helps. Each has to arrive at their own conclusions.

Thanks Jeff for an insightful and instructive reply.

Please understand the issue raised was not meant to denigrate in any way the assets of the USN. I have suspected all along and your posting confirms my view that the significant cost differential between similar assets across borders cannot simply be explained away by inherent cost structures between countries. A significant of the cost add on's (some unnecessary) are due to unfortunately politics and policies that get in the way of sound procurement practices. As I look at each discussions concerning future replacements e.g. ex Ohio, Tico, LXR et al I get a sense that the US can no longer afford the programs it want without sacrificing something in the process. My fear is it will end up with a Navy it can only afford and not the Navy it needs because each replacement class becomes overly expensive. Unless something changes for the better, the US will eventually be placed in a strategic disadvantage viz a viz its potential adversaries.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Several ships homeports change in the Pacific Fleet :

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Images of the Day 1/

Capt. Michael P. Donnelly, commanding officer of the amphibious transport dock ship USS Denver (LPD 9), passes through ceremonial sideboys at the conclusion of the ship's decommissioning ceremony at Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. Denver officially inactivates Sep. 30 after almost 46 years of service.

So, Burke class Preble and Jones ( ABM ) moved from San Diego now to Pearl Harbor, Destroyer Squadron 31, which have now 9 Burke.
CG Lake Erie ( ABM ) based to Pearl Harbor go to San Diego, it will remain 2 Ticonderoga.

And Denver decommissioned replaced to Sasebo by the Green Bay ( S Ant. ) in 02/2015, Amphibious Squadron 11
centered on the LHD Bonhomme Richard.

It remains now only one Austin class, the Ponce, used as Afloat Forward Staging Base, polyvalent ship, based to Manama, Bahrain, attached to 5th Fleet.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Great US Navy combatant PDF poster by Raytheon:

rtn_180603.pdf


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