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I think you've got F35 Derangement syndrome.
LOL I thank you, my Online Doctor


This isn't F35 this is F15. Had the issue been F35 we would be talking about F16X not F15X. Two years ago they were talking about retiring F15C and D for F16s now that are they aiming for? Retiring F15C and D for F15CX and DX.
got a quote for you (it's from the AirForceMag up this page):

"Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said before the budget was released the F-15s were inserted into the budget by entities outside the Air Force, and the service instead preferred to buy more F-35s."

don't you feel the pressure exerted on LockMart and the JSF Program Office?
 

Brumby

Major
I think it's basically happening due to egregious delays, cost overruns in the F-35 program, its sustainment
This conversation about F-15X is necessitated by the truncation of the F-22 program. There is insufficient capacity with the limited number of F-22s. The F-15C/Ds would have retired if not for the lack of F-22s.
The F-35 by default is a replacement option if not for the fact that it cost twice to operate than the F-15X (refer to General Dunford's statement).

The F-15(X) besides adding surge capacity is primarily tasked with national air defence through its ANG units. When we compare the intercept capability between the F-35A vs the F-15(X), the F-15(X) is clearly superior as per comparative analysis below :

upload_2019-3-16_20-6-8.png
upload_2019-3-16_20-7-17.png
Clearly the F-22A is superior in terms of intercept time but the F-15C (acting as surrogate for the F-15X) would be superior to the F-35A.
 
This conversation about F-15X is necessitated by the truncation of the F-22 program. There is insufficient capacity with the limited number of F-22s. The F-15C/Ds would have retired if not for the lack of F-22s.
The F-35 by default is a replacement option if not for the fact that it cost twice to operate than the F-15X (refer to General Dunford's statement).

The F-15(X) besides adding surge capacity is primarily tasked with national air defence through its ANG units. When we compare the intercept capability between the F-35A vs the F-15(X), the F-15(X) is clearly superior as per comparative analysis below :

View attachment 51377
View attachment 51378
Clearly the F-22A is superior in terms of intercept time but the F-15C (acting as surrogate for the F-15X) would be superior to the F-35A.
hey hey are you perhaps trying to sound as if the USAF had wanted those new Eagles all the time?
Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says
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September 12, 2018


see? new F-15s "not on the cards" just like half a year ago

 
Last edited:

Brumby

Major
hey hey are you perhaps trying to sound as if the USAF had wanted those new Eagles all the time?
Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says
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September 12, 2018


see? new F-15s "not on the cards" just like half a year ago
The job of leadership in any organisation is to lead and direct policies and changes if required. What policies prevailed previously is irrelevant. Once a decision is taken in terms of direction, their job is to sell the new policy.
 
The job of leadership in any organisation is to lead and direct policies and changes if required. What policies prevailed previously is irrelevant. Once a decision is taken in terms of direction, their job is to sell the new policy.
yeah and in the meantime
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referred to the F-35 with F word (I don't provide an exact quote on this occasion LOL hope you won't insist)
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
LOL I thank you, my Online Doctor
Just call me Sigmoned Fraud

got a quote for you (it's from the AirForceMag up this page):

"Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said before the budget was released the F-15s were inserted into the budget by entities outside the Air Force, and the service instead preferred to buy more F-35s."

don't you feel the pressure exerted on LockMart and the JSF Program Office?
This was outside the Airforce but because F15C & D

From
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Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph Dunford to the Senate Armed Services Committee,
(Emphasis is mine)
"they had the F-15C, which was aging out in the 2027-2028 period,"

2027-2028 period or 2027-2028. PERIOD!
Either way the point is they don't last into the 2030s

Based on this we can see that inside the Pentagon the top office concluded that F15C/D in the USAF, The "Legacy Eagles" were deemed not salavagable beyond the mid to late 2020s.
That seems a shift prior to 2017 They were talking about F15 2040.
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But then early 2017 and we start hearing about "early retirement".

A year before that Boom.
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Than before Shanahan took over
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July 2018
Willson seems to have been kept out of the loop on this.
see? new F-15s "not on the cards" just like half a year ago
They went shopping for options. They wanted something cheap that could plug the gap. And soon. As the F15C and D are racing to end of life dates.
Gen. Dunford again
"So, within the next five or 10 years "

Lockheed Martin offered Hybrid Lightning Raptor. But as we know they also shopped that to Japan at the same time and it failed to sell. I bet Lockheed Martin was trying to link the deals. We know that the price point to restart the line is a deal killer. With Lockheed Martin busy with F35 it likely didn't seem a realistic option. To develop a Hybrid F35,F22 open a production line start manufacturing well costing less than F35 and all in 5-10 years.

The Pentagon wanted something that cost only a little more than the SLEP had been budgeted for and could happen in a lightning pace but were offered to much from LM.

Boeing offered F15X based off the F15QA it fit the role, the Price, and had open production. Heck parts of it were in the Boeing SLEP package.
So the Pentagon stepped in with the aim Gen. Dunford lays it out.

"the best solution was to go to the F-15, called the EX, platform to backfill the F-15. Eventually we’ll get to an all F-35 program, but from both a cost perspective and a capability perspective, this particular mix of aircraft for the near term was determined to be the right mix of aircraft."

Heather Willson said that the USAF right now have a mix of like 20% Fifth gen and 80% Fourth gen. There current Objective being 50% Fifth gen 50% Fourth gen.
If the USAF were to loose it's F15C and F15D then the numbers get screwy it ends up more 50% 30%. The 30% being a mix of Vipers and Strike Eagles. "Advanced Eagle" let's them keep the 4th gens in the Mix as Heather Willson said.
 
Just call me Sigmoned Fraud


This was outside the Airforce but because F15C & D

From
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Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph Dunford to the Senate Armed Services Committee,
(Emphasis is mine)
"they had the F-15C, which was aging out in the 2027-2028 period,"

2027-2028 period or 2027-2028. PERIOD!
Either way the point is they don't last into the 2030s

Based on this we can see that inside the Pentagon the top office concluded that F15C/D in the USAF, The "Legacy Eagles" were deemed not salavagable beyond the mid to late 2020s.
That seems a shift prior to 2017 They were talking about F15 2040.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

But then early 2017 and we start hearing about "early retirement".

A year before that Boom.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Than before Shanahan took over
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July 2018
Willson seems to have been kept out of the loop on this.


They went shopping for options. They wanted something cheap that could plug the gap. And soon. As the F15C and D are racing to end of life dates.
Gen. Dunford again
"So, within the next five or 10 years "

Lockheed Martin offered Hybrid Lightning Raptor. But as we know they also shopped that to Japan at the same time and it failed to sell. I bet Lockheed Martin was trying to link the deals. We know that the price point to restart the line is a deal killer. With Lockheed Martin busy with F35 it likely didn't seem a realistic option. To develop a Hybrid F35,F22 open a production line start manufacturing well costing less than F35 and all in 5-10 years.

The Pentagon wanted something that cost only a little more than the SLEP had been budgeted for and could happen in a lightning pace but were offered to much from LM.

Boeing offered F15X based off the F15QA it fit the role, the Price, and had open production. Heck parts of it were in the Boeing SLEP package.
So the Pentagon stepped in with the aim Gen. Dunford lays it out.

"the best solution was to go to the F-15, called the EX, platform to backfill the F-15. Eventually we’ll get to an all F-35 program, but from both a cost perspective and a capability perspective, this particular mix of aircraft for the near term was determined to be the right mix of aircraft."

Heather Willson said that the USAF right now have a mix of like 20% Fifth gen and 80% Fourth gen. There current Objective being 50% Fifth gen 50% Fourth gen.
If the USAF were to loose it's F15C and F15D then the numbers get screwy it ends up more 50% 30%. The 30% being a mix of Vipers and Strike Eagles. "Advanced Eagle" let's them keep the 4th gens in the Mix as Heather Willson said.
while writing this verbiage, did you think of Shanahan's characterization of the F-35 Program as - up? LOL
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Shanahan isn't the one who set the course. Mattis was. The first report of this dates back before his resignation. Shanahan just said "okay that's the policy we will go with."
 
me comfortably seated, watching
Lockheed Martin is Waging War on Boeing’s F-15EX
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The F-35 makers sees the Pentagon’s plans to buy new F-15s for the first time in 19 years as a threat.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has reportedly been
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against older warplanes during U.S. military drills in Nevada — even the F-15, whose record in real combat is a flawless
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. Now the two jets are heading into a fierce dogfight, one that doesn’t involve missiles or guns.

The battle between Lockheed Martin’s F-35 and
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is being fought by lobbyists in and around Congress, which is beginning to review the Pentagon’s fiscal 2020 budget request. Tens of billions of dollars are up for grabs over the coming decade.

This week, Pentagon officials
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for the first time since 2001, even though top Air Force officials have said as
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that they didn’t necessarily want the the planes. For nearly two decades, Air Force officials have argued against buying so-called fourth-generation planes, preferring for stealthier fifth-generation planes with newer technology.

The proposed F-15 purchase is rather small: eight jets in 2020 and a total of 80 through 2024. By comparison, the Pentagon wants to buy 78 F-35s in 2020, with 48 going to the Air Force.

But Pentagon
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also signal that the Air Force could buy hundreds of F-15s over the next decade. A tranche of 144 planes would “initially refresh” squadrons that fly Cold War-era F-15C Eagles designed for air-to-air combat. And the plane has the “potential to refresh the remainder of the F-15C/D fleet and the F-15E fleet.” In all, that’s more than 400 planes.

That was enough to draw a full-court press from Lockheed. One day after that announcement, company officials began circulating a three-page white paper detailing the “F-35’s decisive edge” over unnamed fourth-generation warplanes. Defense One reviewed the white paper.

Lockheed’s arguments boil down to bang-for-the-buck: The F-35 will cost about the same or less than the F-15 soon (the long-criticized price has in fact
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), its operating costs will be less than the F-15’s within six years, and it can fly a more diverse set of missions.

Boeing’s argument: The F-35 was never intended to replace the air-to-air F-15C — but the F-15EX could do so while expanding those squadrons’ capabilities. Pilots would not need to extensive training to fly the jet, which could carry heavy loads of weapons, plus Eagle bases would not need major infrastructure upgrades. And the new
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, similar to the F-15E Strike Eagle, meaning that it could strike targets in the air, on the ground or at sea.

Boeing has been pitching new F-15s to the Air Force on and off for more than a decade, most recently offering a similar version of the plane it builds for Saudi Arabia and Qatar. The latest effort started to
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last summer.

The idea was embraced within parts of the Air Force, but not by top Air Force leaders. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson acknowledged on Feb. 28 that the planes
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.

But analysis by the Joint Staff and Pentagon Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation Office “on the kinds of capabilities that we require in the aviation realm” led officials to recommend buying the F-15EX, a senior defense official said.

Elaine McCusker, the Pentagon deputy comptroller, said Tuesday that former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis made the decision to include the F-15EX in the Defense Department’s budget request.

“The F-35 remains a critical program for the joint force as we look to the future and the kinds of capabilities we require,” Lt. Gen. Anthony Ierardi, director of force structure, resources and assessment on the Joint Staff, said Tuesday. “The F-15EX provides additional capacity and readiness, especially in the near years to mid years, as we look at the threats and the kinds of combat potential that we needed to bring to bear.”

Whether Congress agrees with that rationale is yet to be seen. In February, five Republican senators — all with ties to Lockheed F-35 manufacturing work or F-35 bases — sent a
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to President Trump in opposition of the F-15EX.

“We are extremely concerned that, over the last few years, the DoD has underfunded the F-35 Program and relied on Congress to fund increases in production, sustainment, and modernization,” they group led by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, wrote. “In order to meet the overmatch and lethality goals laid out in the National Security Strategy, the DoD needs to make these investments in the F-35 to affordably deliver and operate this fifth-generation fighter fleet. The F-35 is the most affordable, lethal, and survivable air dominance fighter, and now is the time to double down on the program.”

The 2020 budget request includes $11.2 billion to buy 78 F-35s — 48, which would be Air Force jets. That money would also go toward improving jets already built. Lawmakers have routinely added F-35s to the Pentagon’s request. For instance, last year they added 16 planes to the 77 requested by the Defense Department.

The 2020 budget request includes $1.1 billion for the eight F-15EX jets. Some of that money would go toward standing up the production line.

About a month after Bloomberg
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in December that eight F-15EX jets would be in the budget request, Marillyn Hewson, Lockheed’s CEO, said Pentagon leaders told her that F-15 buys would not be at the expense of the F-35.

“The combat proven F-35 is the National Defense Strategy in action and the program continues to see strong support throughout the Pentagon, the U.S. Services, Congress and the White House,” the company said in an emailed statement.

Pentagon officials have been insisted that any F-15EX buys would not eat into planned F-35 buys. In all, the Pentagon plans to buy a total 2,443 jets over the coming decades.

“If Congress changes that to all F-35s, they’ll be all F-35s, we understand that,” Maj. Gen. David Krumm, director of strategic plans in the office of the deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements at the Pentagon, said Thursday at the Mitchell Institute. “But based upon the resources we have and the ownership costs of the platforms, we think that this is the best way that we can present the nation’s Air Force and the best way we can get to a capabilities and capacities that we have.

“If we have more resources, I think we need to have a conversation about what it is we go for,” he said. “But based upon the resources that we have, we think that this is the right way to go.”
perhaps the most interesting sentence inside is

"Lockheed’s arguments boil down to bang-for-the-buck: The F-35 will cost about the same or less than the F-15 soon (the long-criticized price has in fact
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), its operating costs will be less than the F-15’s within six years, and it can fly a more diverse set of missions."

considering the info about the F-35 operating cost in
Dunford: New F-15 Buy for Air Force Fills F-35 Capacity and Capability Shortfall
3/14/2019
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