US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

[Jura The idiot]

guys I gave Likes to all today's posts without understanding much and now hope somebody will explain to me what's:

1. Spectrum dominance

2. Advance propulsion

3. Autonomous sensor and payload integration

from the article Brumby quoted, which is

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and for the respective points it seems to be mainly saying

1. It refers to the ability of “U.S. forces, operating unilaterally or in combination with multinational and inter agency partners, to defeat any adversary and control any situation across the full range of military operations.”

2. being able to reduce the SWaP-C of your propulsion system,

3. An autonomous sensor in the context of a future plane can mean many things.

but I likely missed the explanations ...

 

[Bernard]

guys I gave Likes to all today's posts without understanding much and now hope somebody will explain to me what's:

Me too Jura.. For courtesy people should at least in write out the acronyms

 

[Jura The idiot]

Me too Jura.. For courtesy people should at least in write out the acronyms

Bernard actually some posters are very kind; you can start here:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...os-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-197#post-318977

(personally I think I'm getting better in acronyms, but slowly new to me was

the size, weight, power, performance, and cooling (SWaP-C) cost

in that defenseone.com article)

 

[Air Force Brat]

Me too Jura.. For courtesy people should at least in write out the acronyms

Roger That Gentlemen, the reason nobody is getting specific about these kool new technologies is that very few of us really understand what we are writing about, and the rest of us really don't care enough to try to track down all this nebulous and untried and unproven systems and theories.

I honestly believe that many including the CNO do not really have a grasp of the technology because they have no grasp of the "problem" that we are trying to solve, like the CNO saying he would love to get rid of the pilot and his accommodation so he could carry a "real load"??? He's looking for payload, I've got a couple of manure spreaders at the farm that are all about "payload". There's always lots of "bull krap" floating around on military forums on the internet because these technologies are in their infancy, and people even Sino Defense Brothers kinda like to sound "knowledgeable".

The obvious issue is that we don't even know how 5th gen is going to "flesh out" as many of our fifth gen aircraft are in their infancy, how they come out as systems and technologies are integrated depend on our staying engaged in the business at hand??? Theoretical next gen aircraft don't require and fuel, and much less staffing, and there is little hardware to observe and evaluate.
So while there is a lot of amazing technology out there, I would honestly be a great deal more excited to see someone revive and update the YF-23 or the Raptor, and I believe we would have all the airplane we need to carry us through the next 35-50 years??

as an edit, I would add that I am not talking about Jeff or Brumby or any of our more knowledgeable an honest posters!

 

[Brumby]

Roger That Gentlemen, the reason nobody is getting specific about these kool new technologies is that very few of us really understand what we are writing about, and the rest of us really don't care enough to try to track down all this nebulous and untried and unproven systems and theories.

I honestly believe that many including the CNO do not really have a grasp of the technology because they have no grasp of the "problem" that we are trying to solve, like the CNO saying he would love to get rid of the pilot and his accommodation so he could carry a "real load"??? He's looking for payload, I've got a couple of manure spreaders at the farm that are all about "payload". There's always lots of "bull krap" floating around on military forums on the internet because these technologies are in their infancy, and people even Sino Defense Brothers kinda like to sound "knowledgeable".

The obvious issue is that we don't even know how 5th gen is going to "flesh out" as many of our fifth gen aircraft are in their infancy, how they come out as systems and technologies are integrated depend on our staying engaged in the business at hand??? Theoretical next gen aircraft don't require and fuel, and much less staffing, and there is little hardware to observe and evaluate.
So while there is a lot of amazing technology out there, I would honestly be a great deal more excited to see someone revive and update the YF-23 or the Raptor, and I believe we would have all the airplane we need to carry us through the next 35-50 years??

as an edit, I would add that I am not talking about Jeff or Brumby or any of our more knowledgeable an honest posters!

Mr Brat you are absolutely spot on with your comments and insight and truly deserve an A ++ score.

I echo Mr. Brat’s comments that no one truly knows what would eventuate from all these techie stuff of which some are still science fiction and maybe are simply fantasy ideas. Currently is simply a determination phase of what would be a long cycle spanning the next 20 so years. It is formative, ideas are being shaped and reality checks being placed on them. Different people have different views of what they want to see from the 6th gen program. Buzz words can have different meaning to different people and likely will change in meaning as one idea takes a stronger hold than others. Those in power would want to shape the direction and effort once the path is reasonably clear. All these will take time to come together. Meanwhile just enjoy the ride.

The piece I am actually excited about is with regards to the GE ADVENT program because I think it is very progressed in its development and I would not be surprised a prototype is being tested in Area 51. It makes a lot of sense as a business case for GE. Such an adaptive engine will be a prime candidate for a F-22 upgrade; a F-35 version 2.0; and for the LRS-B program. Imagine the prospects of a F-22 or F-35 with adaptive engines within the next 10 years. With that, a 6th gen plane doesn’t look too hot. The government has just awarded $325 million towards the ADVENT program. This means serious money and a program that is likely well progressed to receive such level of funding. If you look into its history, it already has a 20 years head start.

 

[Scratch]

So Jura, here's my understanding of the terms you questioned:

"Spectrum Dominance" does not relate to any technology, in US military doctrine I think it refers to the type of operations. Something like, offensive, defensive, broad scale high end conflict, irregular warfare, COIN.
Future assets, and the technology contained therein, will be required to allow the US to dominate a conflict / adversary across the full range of military operations, or across the full spectrum.

"Advanced propulsion" is indeed a tech issue. Looking at ways to revolutionize the propulsion technology in planes. Giving them more range without the requirement to put larger fuel tanks in them. More peak power across a wider range of operating conditions. The Variable Cycle Engine needs to be mentioned here. There was one developed already in the form of the GE YF-120 in the ATF program, specificly for the YF-23 I think. My understanding is that this is a prime effort of the ADVENT program and progresses rather well. That engine can adjust the bypass ratio and therefore be efficient across a wider range of conditions.
An extended development of that would be the Turbine Based Combined Cycle engine. An engine capable of transforming itself from a low bypass turbofan / turbojet into a ramjet / scramjet, as was already discussed (and tried?) with the YF-120 for the X-43 program.
Something slightly reminicent of the A-12's / SR-71's J58 engine, that already was some kind of a partial ramjet, or turboramjet.

The "autonomous sensor" is really just speculation on my part. A sensor suite that is smart in that it doesn't need operator input to initiate certain modes / operations under a given set of circumstances. Easing workload, maybe.

 

[Air Force Brat]

So Jura, here's my understanding of the terms you questioned:

"Spectrum Dominance" does not relate to any technology, in US military doctrine I think it refers to the type of operations. Something like, offensive, defensive, broad scale high end conflict, irregular warfare, COIN.
Future assets, and the technology contained therein, will be required to allow the US to dominate a conflict / adversary across the full range of military operations, or across the full spectrum.

"Advanced propulsion" is indeed a tech issue. Looking at ways to revolutionize the propulsion technology in planes. Giving them more range without the requirement to put larger fuel tanks in them. More peak power across a wider range of operating conditions. The Variable Cycle Engine needs to be mentioned here. There was one developed already in the form of the GE YF-120 in the ATF program, specificly for the YF-23 I think. My understanding is that this is a prime effort of the ADVENT program and progresses rather well. That engine can adjust the bypass ratio and therefore be efficient across a wider range of conditions.
An extended development of that would be the Turbine Based Combined Cycle engine. An engine capable of transforming itself from a low bypass turbofan / turbojet into a ramjet / scramjet, as was already discussed (and tried?) with the YF-120 for the X-43 program.
Something slightly reminicent of the A-12's / SR-71's J58 engine, that already was some kind of a partial ramjet, or turboramjet.

The "autonomous sensor" is really just speculation on my part. A sensor suite that is smart in that it doesn't need operator input to initiate certain modes / operations under a given set of circumstances. Easing workload, maybe.

Thank you Scratch, I'm extremely glad that your schedule has allowed you to return and lend your always well reasoned and well written posts to the Sino Defense crowd, you are a credit to your people bruda.

 

[Jura The idiot]

So Jura, here's my understanding of the terms you questioned:

thanks Scratch, while I much prefer ships to airplanes I noticed journalists in Central Europe from time to time read something on the US Military-related servers and put it on their newspaper or news-server ... and then I'm inquired in the pub LOL ... next week this may happen about the 6 Gen (likely with additional problems like "sensationalism", stuff lost in translation

"Spectrum Dominance" does not relate to any technology, in US military doctrine I think it refers to the type of operations. Something like, offensive, defensive, broad scale high end conflict, irregular warfare, COIN.
Future assets, and the technology contained therein, will be required to allow the US to dominate a conflict / adversary across the full range of military operations, or across the full spectrum.

but a blogger (who might've been wrong, of course -- I'm just posting what I found)

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understood "Spectrum Dominance" in the sense of Electromagnetic Spectrum meaning the 6th Gen would do the Electronic Warfare, too

"Advanced propulsion" is indeed a tech issue. Looking at ways to revolutionize the propulsion technology in planes. Giving them more range without the requirement to put larger fuel tanks in them. More peak power across a wider range of operating conditions. The Variable Cycle Engine needs to be mentioned here. There was one developed already in the form of the GE YF-120 in the ATF program, specificly for the YF-23 I think. My understanding is that this is a prime effort of the ADVENT program and progresses rather well. That engine can adjust the bypass ratio and therefore be efficient across a wider range of conditions.
An extended development of that would be the Turbine Based Combined Cycle engine. An engine capable of transforming itself from a low bypass turbofan / turbojet into a ramjet / scramjet, as was already discussed (and tried?) with the YF-120 for the X-43 program.
Something slightly reminicent of the A-12's / SR-71's J58 engine, that already was some kind of a partial ramjet, or turboramjet.

in addition to what you said, a very useful link (if I'm not mistaken, posted by Brumby two days ago):

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The "autonomous sensor" is really just speculation on my part. A sensor suite that is smart in that it doesn't need operator input to initiate certain modes / operations under a given set of circumstances. Easing workload, maybe.

here I directly quote from that blog

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as that part sounds very cool

I’m not quite sure what this refers to. I assume it encompasses the F-35 360 degree sensor fusion concept as a baseline. I further assume it goes well beyond that to include the ability to interface with any sensor on any platform, anywhere, and to seamlessly interface those sensors with the aircraft’s weapons.
I also assume the autonomous portion of this requirement refers to the stated desire for an optionally manned aircraft. When the aircraft is operating in unmanned mode, the control software will be able to select and use any appropriate sensor to best utilize any available weapon.

 

[Brumby]

So Jura, here's my understanding of the terms you questioned:

"Spectrum Dominance" does not relate to any technology, in US military doctrine I think it refers to the type of operations. Something like, offensive, defensive, broad scale high end conflict, irregular warfare, COIN.
Future assets, and the technology contained therein, will be required to allow the US to dominate a conflict / adversary across the full range of military operations, or across the full spectrum.

IMHO the meaning of spectrum dominance with regards to 6G is probably more narrowly focussed on electromagnetic spectrum rather than the meaning of battlefield dominance across the four armed services. Currently the role of F-35 is already tasked with being a sensor node in the battle space and so extending and broadening the role of the 6G asset to a spectrum node is probably a logical extension of capabilities. The problem with specialised assets for the electronic warfare role is that they are vulnerable and prime targets in a conflict. A 6G asset with miniaturized electromagnetic spectrum capabilities would be able to operate inside the threat bubble.

 

[Brumby]

In the just released 2015 Naval Technology document, there are 9 areas identified as focus areas including an area titled “ Electromagnetic Maneuver Warfare”. The vision of this focus is to enable the warfighter to have complete control of the electromagnetic spectrum to ensure that naval forces can utilize it as required for electronic warfare (EW), surveillance and communications; deny the adversary the ability to use the spectrum except as we allow it; and assure that our sensors and electronic systems operate across the full span of the electromagnetic spectrum. Effectively what this means is that the 6G asset will be a communications, surveillance, EW and electronics node if I map the naval vision to the description of how spectrum dominance will be achieved.