US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

[Blitzo]

Cross posting this from the new thread I made:

Pics of an NPU entry into the 6th annual aerospace innovation contest, which depicts a 6th generation fighter concept.
Chinese research into 6th gen is obviously no farther along than the US, and they're probably still playing around with what the real thing will look like, although they seem to have started R&D for some subsystems like the next generation engine.
But it seems like some staples of 6th gen will be taillessness, extremely blended wing/body, long range, optionally manned, ACE engines, new generation sensors and power management, possible adaptive aerofoils, space for DEW, etc.

I think this is a rare glimpse into one of the many institutes and brainstormed 6th generation concepts, and one that doesn't reveal too much about how far along the PLA and its contractors are in official R&D. However it does tell us what the real thing might look like.
It is somewhat similar to the Boeing proposals.

 

[Air Force Brat]

looks like an engineer's "napkin doodleing" to me blitzo??

 

[Brumby]

although they seem to have started R&D for some subsystems like the next generation engine.

A bit pf reality check. Do you think China is going to merge the current and future engine program into one given that it is struggling to even overcome present technology hurdles let alone future ones? I am not saying China cannot master it but maybe it is rather ambitious to talk about 2 generation leap.

 

[Blitzo]

A bit pf reality check. Do you think China is going to merge the current and future engine program into one given that it is struggling to even overcome present technology hurdles let alone future ones? I am not saying China cannot master it but maybe it is rather ambitious to talk about 2 generation leap.

WS-15 and the next generation engine are completely separate of course; I'm not suggesting the two should be or are going to be merged. I'm saying that even though WS-15 still hasn't flown yet, R&D for the next generation engine can still already begin. WS-15 should be undergoing advanced stages of development now with prototypes, with flight testing not too far from now. Even accounting for delays, it would make sense to start R&D of the next generation early. For instance, I expect WS-15 R&D began before WS-10 began flight testing. J-20 R&D likely began not too long after J-10 made its first flight as well.

So yes, I do believe it is quite realistic. Note, I consider R&D to be the very first stage of developing a new product. I'm not saying they've already settled on a design for the new engine and that they've got all the material tech identified and ready or anything.

 

[Blitzo]

looks like an engineer's "napkin doodleing" to me blitzo??

That is exactly what it is. But it is supposedly from a university that will almost certainly contribute to the next generation fighter too (they contributed to J-20, and a variety of other aircraft projects), and was entered into a competition deliberately meant to exploit new innovative ideas that can be developed within 2-3 decades... Funded by various universities as well as by the PLAAF.
A related competition is the UAV Grand Prix, where we first saw the models of the FC-31 and lijian UCAV, well before we saw them make their first flight, which many people including myself wrote off as toy models of no consequence.
Yeah, after that I've kept a much closer eye on these competitions. The key is to realise that a lot of the concepts won't make it to reality, and it is to try and identify the ones which may provide an inkling as to what a future PLAAF funded project derived from the concept might look like. In this case, we all know the PLAAF will pursue a 6th gen fighter (and probably have started R&D for it already), and these drawings are supposedly from a major university involved in the aerospace industry, so they are probably as good indications of what part of the PLA's R&D teams are thinking wrt to 6th gen, and probably as good indicators as the CGIs that Lockheed or Boeing have put out for their 6th gen ideas. In other words, only minimally useful.

 

[Brumby]

Amongst the many articles that had appeared recently reporting on 6th gen development news, the most insightful article in my view is the one by DefenceOne because it actually discusses specific tech areas that are targeted for application such as :

1. Spectrum dominance

2. Advance propulsion

3. Autonomous sensor and payload integration

They are noteworthy because the article also ties them to existing DARPA research projects and so they are more than just sound bites of science fiction but are girded by some form of research initiative that might actually move the concept forward. The last one on the list is rather ambiguous in nature but appears to be headed in two distinct areas; (i) automation, robotics and swarming; and (ii) mother ship delivery. It reminds me of the scene from the movie Enders Game

In my view the single most important element in the 6th gen program is not in the technology but rather in the strategic roadmap and architecture delivery of very disparate distinct tech programs and being able to bring them together in a coherent, practical and cost manageable timetable. Unfortunately technology do not subscribe to the fact there is a program timetable but only will progress as and when tech hurdles are overcome and reaches maturity in application. Any repeat of the JSF type of program management will doom the program.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Well, I think that the US Navy is not going to largely rely on the USAF and F-22s for this. There may be times when they can...but, to begin with there are not enough F-22s, and secondly, the US Navy recognizes from hard experience that they have to have the capabilities to knock down the doors themselves in many instances.

The US Navy is yet to fight an enemy that can bring in equal capability on the table. So the situations the Navy has been since the Cold War has been extremely one-sided. What I mean is the US is yet to fight against even older SA-10/20, let alone the newer versions.

There are enough F-22s for the type of wars you have fought recently. The number of F-15Cs available for the same mission is very similar to the number of operational F-22s anyway. When I said OCA, I was referring to the missions the F-15Cs conducted during the Gulf War. You are going to need fewer F-22As than F-15Cs considering the tremendous advantage that comes with supercruise.

With the increase of OPFOR capabilities now being the trend, the US cannot rely on experiences it has had in the post cold war era to overly influence future planning. The current admin wants to use this (post cold war experiences) as an excuse/justification to make cuts...but such thinking is political in nature more than anything else, and from a technology and war fighting capability standpoint, extremely short sighted.

Politics is a pain in the you-know-what when it comes to defense. I'm one of the few non-American people who believe the US defense budget should be growing, not shrinking, especially the US Navy's budget.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Super-, Hypersonic missiles might be an option, but probably a more exotic one.

It's no longer exotic, it is a necessity.

 

[A Bar Brother]

A bit pf reality check. Do you think China is going to merge the current and future engine program into one given that it is struggling to even overcome present technology hurdles let alone future ones? I am not saying China cannot master it but maybe it is rather ambitious to talk about 2 generation leap.

When it comes to engines, you never know. You can't rely only on theories and formula to get an engine design right.

 

[Brumby]

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In terms of advance propulsion, the space to watch is the ADVENT program as it has made significant headway in adaptive propulsion. It has also recently been awarded with a $325 million development funding.