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UK to reduce missile payload of Successor SSBNs

The UK's next generation of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines will carry only 12 missile tubes, four fewer than the Vanguard-class strategic missile submarines (SSBNs) they will replace, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has confirmed.

Announcing the decision in a speech at the International Nuclear Fuel Cycle Conference in London, Brown said that for the Successor class of future submarine, "our latest assessment is that we can meet this requirement with 12 - not 16 - missile tubes, as are on current submarines".

He also confirmed that the UK's stockpile of operationally available warheads now numbered "fewer than 160". "If it is possible to reduce the number of UK warheads further, consistent with our national deterrence and with the progress of multilateral discussions, Britain will be ready to do so," he added.

The UK government outlined its plans in a December 2006 white paper to maintain and renew its strategic nuclear deterrent capability.
 

Mr T

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Industrial participation could generate business valued at USD38 billion for UK businesses through the system development and demonstration and production phases of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft programme, programme leader Lockheed Martin estimated.

The United States group added: "Much, much more value will be generated through any follow-on production and sustainment work."

The comments came on 18 March, following the announcement that the UK – the only level one partner in the international programme – will move ahead with its plan to purchase its first three F-35 aircraft despite significant pressure on the country's procurement funds.

Good news on two counts! :D
 

SampanViking

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Just thought I would spread a little sunshine.

Today's Budget has announced over £700 Billion pounds of extra borrowing over the next five years and only made the debt to look supportable by some very dodgy growth forecasts for the next few years.

SO with extra interest payments alone likely to exceed the annual MOD budget, and a general squeeze throughout the land imminent, does anyone seriously still believe the UK will get its new Carriers?
 

druid84

New Member
well the UK will get the carriers because with all the penalities included in the contracts, it would almost amount to the cost of buying them, though, other defence programs most likely will be cut, or scaled back, like the eurofighter.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Just thought I would spread a little sunshine.

Today's Budget has announced over £700 Billion pounds of extra borrowing over the next five years and only made the debt to look supportable by some very dodgy growth forecasts for the next few years.

SO with extra interest payments alone likely to exceed the annual MOD budget, and a general squeeze throughout the land imminent, does anyone seriously still believe the UK will get its new Carriers?

As long as they are being built in Gordon Brown's constituency and their cancellation will mean he has a snowball's chance in hell of being re elected as an MP let alone as PM then yes we will get them. The contracts have been signed, the money has been spent, the penalty clauses against cancellation are in place. Savings to be made by cancellation are currently close to zero and may it even cost a small fortune to cancel them. My vote is they are safe. They are far from being the most expensive defence project around right now as well...
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Just thought I would spread a little sunshine.

Today's Budget has announced over £700 Billion pounds of extra borrowing over the next five years and only made the debt to look supportable by some very dodgy growth forecasts for the next few years.

SO with extra interest payments alone likely to exceed the annual MOD budget, and a general squeeze throughout the land imminent, does anyone seriously still believe the UK will get its new Carriers?

It will be political suicide to cancel the project; the work for the carriers is spread out through many MP's ridings and it is providing jobs in a time when people are loosing jobs. Ship building employs a ton of people across many sectors of the economy, and is one way to help stimulate the economy.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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And adding to the chorus:

Mind the gapWednesday, April 22, 2009

With further delays to the CVF programme announced, Rear Admiral Terry Loughran calls for commitment to fulfilling the original CVF programme.

On Thursday 11th December 2008, Defence Secretary John Hutton announced delays of one to two years in the in-service dates of the two new aircraft carriers (CVF), HM Ships Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales. He accompanied this statement with an assurance that there would be no loss of jobs. As MP for Birkenhead, he knows this to be disingenuous, as jobs that would have been created, at a time when employment is such an important issue, will now be delayed. The arrival of a full-time Defence Secretary who understands the connection between the creation of hi-tech jobs, the benefits to the economy and the importance of appropriately equipped armed forces in protecting our national interests worldwide is welcomed by all three services. However, like his immediate predecessors, he finds himself between a rock and a hard place - toeing the party line while trying to manage a defence budget that has fallen to its lowest level since the 1930s at just 2.3% of GDP.

The concurrent operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, while unpopular in the country, serve to emphasise the uncertainty in predicting where national interests might be threatened, and the need, therefore, to plan far ahead for the timely delivery of the appropriate flexible forces. Clearly, the planners, constrained by reduced defence allocation, have failed to provide, for example, sufficient armoured vehicles and support helicopters, and the contingent bill for current operations and the associated Urgent Operational Requirements - standing at some £13bn - causes Treasury eyes to water. But robbing the long-term procurement plans (with the inevitable cost increases) is never a sensible answer to present funding pressures. Be that as it may, in the optimism that infuses me in the early days of a new year, I would only make a plea for honesty, oh and some joined-up thinking!

Scarcely three weeks after the announced delay, the Prime Minister trumpeted an injection of cash into the economy to create new jobs, high technology and apprenticeships. Look no further than the CVF project, which, in keeping with the country's history of innovation in aircraft carrier design, is already attracting great interest from abroad. The groundbreaking joint venture to build these ships is harnessing the finest skills from around the British Isles, and the project has given a further boost to BAE Systems Surface Fleet Solutions' (now the BVT Surface Fleet Joint Venture with VT and FSL) already admirable record in creating new apprenticeships.

Already I hear the cry of 'realism', the final acknowledgement of failed planning and poor decision-making. The demise of the Sea Harrier - arguably the finest air-to-air system in the Western world - providing an air superiority capability to the carriers, was justified in part by the arrival of the air defence expected from the Type 45 and PAAMS. 'Mind that Gap'!

We are now told that a delay in the CVF (already slipped from 2012) will allow the build programme to align more closely with the planned introduction into service of the Joint Combat Aircraft. But provision has already been made for the GR9 to fill that gap - and it is important that it does so to maintain our expertise in embarked STOVL (Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing) operations. Further delays are likely to demand further investment in both these aircraft and in the two remaining 'stop gap' carriers - Illustrious and Ark Royal. And we need all the time we can get to recover the skills of operating large aircraft carriers, skills that, through necessity, have faded somewhat since the demise of the 'old' CV Ark Royal. It is the intricacies of the ship/air interface that allow the most effective employment of embarked aircraft, core skills embedded in Royal Navy Fixed and Rotary Wing Squadrons, and no job for a part-time airgroup, embarked today but ashore tomorrow. It would do no harm to get to grips with this interface in the new ships before the arrival of fresh challenges in the shape of the JCA.

There should be no suggestion that the postulated delays will somehow undermine the case for the ships themselves. The events of the last decade have, if anything, strengthened the arguments set out in the Strategic Defence Review and the subsequent New Chapter that we need to engage our enemies in their backyard and not our own, and that aircraft carriers offer the full range of options, from peace support though coercion into combat. And in these days of 'nation states' and the uncertainties of over-flights and foreign basing, power projection ashore from the sea affords a variety of beneficial options. It is highly misleading to assume as normal the present situation in Afghanistan where we are operating with all our forces on the ground. The stand-off capability of the CVF and their future aircraft will afford assured power projection and air support with all the advantages of poise for diplomacy, flexibility in deployment and sustainability to own forces. The present CVS, admirable though they have proved over the last three decades, leave an ever-widening capability gap that cannot be ignored. It is nevertheless remarkable that their current generation of STOVL aircraft, the Harriers now up to GR9 modification, have proved quite so utilitarian and amenable to capability updates, and it is inconceivable that the combined ship/airgroup capability package should be undermined in the interim by the early retirement of these aircraft. It is being mooted that this would be a cost saving measure in favour of a single aircraft type - Typhoon, which would certainly soak up any savings in an effort to make that aircraft's 'multi-role capability' a reality, and not one that would ever encompass embarked operations from any ship.

Given my own experience, having flown as a pilot in the old CV Ark Royal and commanding the present STOVL ship of the same name, and being involved in the CVF programme from the initial competitive phase through to chairing the Independent Review Panel, I might be accused of special pleading. Guilty as charged! With the Royal Navy regularly providing over 50% of the forces in Afghanistan - from the Naval Strike Wing Harriers in close air support to the Royal Marines on the ground and helicopters in support - I would welcome any injection of additional resources to all personnel involved in a high-combat situation. But let's not fool ourselves, or the public at large, by pretending anything other than capabilities such as CVF defined in the Strategic Defence Review, which have withstood many a scrutiny, need appropriate funding. Military adventures do not come cheap in terms of lives and serious injuries, and they deserve separate funding. Defence procurement to capability, time and cost is always a challenge. Both benefit from a little honesty.

Rear Admiral Terry Loughran is a seasoned Conference Chairman, Facilitator and After Dinner Speaker, maintaining a close interest in defence matters. He is currently Chairman of FLY NAVY Heritage, celebrating this year the Centenary of Naval Aviation.

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SampanViking

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The writers term "already slipped" is the one that strikes the most resonant chord with me. I am sure it is simply the first of many. I am sure that the Royal Navy will get something at the end of the day, but what it turns out to be and when it gets it are entirely different matters.

Personally I doubt if they will see anything before 2020 and that could be well passed before anything is delivered.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
So with extra interest payments alone likely to exceed the annual MOD budget, and a general squeeze throughout the land imminent, does anyone seriously still believe the UK will get its new Carriers?

As Obi Wan said, it's political suicide for Brown. But more importantly with the contracts signed the government simply has no choice but to pay for the work.

If the project was at the stage where we were back last year I might agree with you, but fortunately for the Royal Navy the cost of cancellation will now be as high as continuing.
 

SampanViking

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For Goodness sakes lad, how can a dead man commit suicide?

The UK is currently the prime candidate to be the first G8 nation to enter Sovereign Bankruptcy!! Our economy is currently shrinking at a annual rate of 7.5% (we only shrank 5% in total during the Great Depression) talk of Mega Carriers and F35 super planes is pure lunacy as we will be lucky to find willing lenders of credit simply to fund the essential functions of the state. Which country would lend us money given our current credit rating just to build or buy boys toys? especially if these countries perceive that they are the ones that such weapons will be primarily directed against!

I watched Dispatches earlier in the week and I was struck by the Hedge Fund Owner/Manager that profited from the the Autumn Crash as he had built his hedges in anticipation of it. He said "Even though we were making huge amounts of money, my trader got up half way through and said, I have to go for a walk, I cant just sit here and watch while Western Civilisation goes down the pan, I agreed and went with him..."

That is the reality of what is happening and it is about time that people wake up and realise it!:coffee:
 
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