U.S. military says copter down in Iraq

Not sure what missiles are alleged to be being to used,but have seen on the net allegations that funds and weaponry originating in Saudi Arabia are being funnelled to Sunni groups in Iraq, via Syria, in order to counterbalance Irans infrluence over the Shia groups in Iraq.
Also according to the Financial times, a senior US official has said that the US adminstration will goahead with a twice postponed presentation that will
demonstrate beyond doubt that Iran is arming Shia groups.
Not sure how to post links, but this report along with other recent reports can be seen on ft.com.

akihh said:

Almost all shoulder-launched missiles use passive infrared for homing in. In other words, these do not emit anything to be detectable. Even after launch newer ones are quite hard object to track - small missile frame (small target for radars, and you blow your own cover if using active radar much), quick burn-time (little time for heat sensors to pick it up) and leave very little smoke. And as Crazyinsane pointed out, usually they're shot from very close range which leaves no time to react.

In my understanding, even second-generation MANPADS are somewhat immune to flares, as they use advanced seekers:
Source:

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can you explain passive infra red compare to active infra red??
so what you said is true that means all helicopter operating in IRAQ is really vulnerable to these missiles????

Re: NYT article

This may clear some things up-


Small arms fire, when concentrated, will damage engines, rotor blades, fuel tanks, and of course weapons. 30(!) Apaches were forced to withdraw in a battle with the Iraqis back in 2003 thanks to mostly fire from heavy machine guns, and there was at least one forced down by farmers armed with AK-47s!

IN CENTRAL IRAQ, March 24 - With a hail of small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades, Iraqi forces downed two Apache helicopters today and forced 30 other helicopters in their brigade back to their base. ..
Iraq claimed Monday to have shot down two Apache helicopters and to hold two pilots prisoner. "A small number of peasants shot down two Apaches," Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf said. "Perhaps we will show pictures of the pilots." Iraqi state television showed pictures of only one downed helicopter in a grassy field.

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ahho said:

can you explain passive infra red compare to active infra red??
so what you said is true that means all helicopter operating in IRAQ is really vulnerable to these missiles????

Click to expand...

Infrared is a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum which has the special characteristic that many materials (including metals) emit electromagnetic radiation in this portion of the spectrum naturally due to their temperature. If you have seen a very hot piece of metal glow red, that is related. When metal is at lower temperatures, the glow is at a wavelength human eyes cannot see, a wavelength longer than the color we see as red (hence the name infrared). The hotter an object is, the more infrared radiation it emits.

For missile guidance, a very sensitive infrared detector is used to see the radiation emitted by hot jet engines or the hot metal skin of aircraft (caused by friction with air). This is used to guide missiles. This is passive infrared.

"Active" infrared would mean there is an emitter that shines infrared radiation at the target, and the missile detects the reflected radiation. This would be similar to semi-active radar guidance where the fire control radar shines radar at the target and the missile looks for the reflection. There are some missile systems which use lasers to shine at the target, and some of these lasers may operate in the infrared range. However, generally, when we talk about infrared guided missiles, we're talking about the passive infrared guidance scheme discussed above.

I think that the answer to the "mystery of the downed helicopters" is a number of things. I believe that the insurgents have obtained from some source a much higher number of MANPADs lately. They either bought them from arms dealers or got them from Syria. I can't see Saudi Arabia providing them because they are only concerned with Shiite influence so they wouldn't give the insurgents weapons that could only be used against the Americans. However, I also think that the insurgents have finally begun to realize that American helicopters fly on designated paths (or did till recently). These "air corridors" are easy to observe. The insurgents have probably combined that knowledge with new weapons and better use of machine guns and RPGs to cause the recent spate of chopper losses. One of them was proved to have been brought down by machine gun fire so obviously its a number of factors.

I pity the survivors of those crashes if it went down in areas that are insurgent dominated. I'm sure angry residents and gunmen flock to them like flies.

On another note I wonder if they've had any more success against UAVs.

Re: NYT article

BLUEJACKET said:

This may clear some things up-

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Small arms fire, when concentrated, will damage engines, rotor blades, fuel tanks, and of course weapons. 30(!) Apaches were forced to withdraw in a battle with the Iraqis back in 2003 thanks to mostly fire from heavy machine guns, and there was at least one forced down by farmers armed with AK-47s!

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Ah, the one that was hit by the AK-47. The AK-47 was able to bring it down because the helicopter sustained massive damage from weapons such as 30 mm shells and what not. Also, it still takes a huge amount of skill to down aircraft these days with AAA that isn't radar guided or even harder RPG's or small arms. And downing six of these helicopters in two weeks with combinations of SAM's, RPG's, and small arms fire shows that the Iraqi insurgents have gained some serious skill.

From a article about "war replacement of AH-64D":

In recent days, a pair of Apaches have been lost in Iraq, reportedly to 12.7mm machine gun fire and to an SA-7 Strela man-portable missile.

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And a GS article about MANPADS.

Just seen on UK news a video said to be the ch46 sea knight,being hit by a missile of some sort,its clearly struck in the middle,explodes,breaks in two,and crashes to the ground.Think they said the video is being syndicated by Al Jazeera.

Finn McCool said:

I think that the answer to the "mystery of the downed helicopters" is a number of things. I believe that the insurgents have obtained from some source a much higher number of MANPADs lately. They either bought them from arms dealers or got them from Syria. I can't see Saudi Arabia providing them because they are only concerned with Shiite influence so they wouldn't give the insurgents weapons that could only be used against the Americans.

Click to expand...

Check this article out-

It could be that the Shiites hoard those anti-air missiles and other weapons that could be used against helos/low flying planes just in case the Americans turn on them, and the already have 4 US-supplied C-130 and some helicopters, so the Sunnis will have no shortage of targets even as the Shiites don't use any aircraft!

about the missiles, how would you target a helicopter with passive infrared manpad??

for hmg, what type does the insurgent have that is considered hmg??