U.S. military says copter down in Iraq

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
akihh, you said it!
I can just add that the Russians also lost quite a few SU-25, Mi-24 and Mi-8/17/26 attack/transport helos
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in recent years-even after "the lessons learned" in Afghanistan!
During the first ten weeks of operations, one SU-25 (FROGFOOT) was shot down and a further fourteen aircraft damaged, all of which were later returned to flying condition by engineering personnel. ..
A further SU-25 was shot down on 5 May. ..
Up to the beginning of March 2 x MI-8 (HIP) and 2 x MI-24 (HIND) were lost. On 24 May a third HIND was shot down over the village of Chechen Aul; all three crewmen were killed. Earlier on 30 April another combat helicopter was brought down by heavy machine gun fire over the village of Gilyana; it managed to make a forced landing in Dagestan. A further HIND was shot down on 4 June over the village of Nozhay-Yurt some 70 kms southeast of Groznyy; both crewmen were killed.
On 12 June near Shatoy a HIP was brought down, presumably by an anti aircraft gun as it was delivering ammunition and food to the location of an earlier heliborne assault. The machine caught fire in the air, and began to disintegrate but the pilot managed to set it down and the crew survived. Thus in the six months of military operations ground forces aviation lost 4 x HIND and 3 x HIP.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

..Chechen air defense weapons included ZU-23-2 mobile antiaircraft launchers mounted on KamAZ chassis and DShK machine guns mounted on Cherokee Jeeps and Toyota off-road vehicles. They also reportedly had Shilka ZSU-23/4 antiaircraft guns and Strela-3, Igla-1, and Stinger surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems. The Chechens also used RPG-7 conventional, portable antitank grenade launchers against low-flying aircraft and helicopters. ..helicopter crews ..often returning to home base with bullet holes in the cockpit windshield. Statistics indicate that every 10th helicopter participating in the conflict was lost and every fourth was damaged.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Until March 2000 the air component lost two Frogfoots, one Fencer-E and 18 helicopters. In addition to this 24 aircraft had suffered combat damage. Only half of the helicopters were lost as a result of enemy fire. In June 2000, the number of helicopters lost counted up to 22, including 10 Hinds. In three years, from September 1999-2002, ASV would lose no fewer than 36 helicopters, which was an average of one per month. As aforementioned, this large number of rotary wing losses was only partly caused by enemy fire; other causes could be found in insufficient pilot training and lack of maintenance, due to the reduced funding of the MoD.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Besides MANPADs it's also possible that regular AA/AD missiles are being adopted by the insurgents to shoot them down.
I wonder if light/medium mortars could be used against low flying helicopters?
 

aquauant

Junior Member
I was just thinking in terms of statistical norm. The copter accident frequency seems to be higher than ever before. If it was gun fire or RPG which the insurgents always have plenty from the start, the number of crashes should be evenly distributed during the past few years.

Recent surge in crashes may be due to:

1. better flight path intelligence of the insurgents
2. Anti air missle
3. Copter pilots laxing (I really dont think so)
4. sudden improvement of insurgent's gunnery skill or effective change of tactics.

Anyway, the pilots will definitely change their flight pattern.
 

ahho

Junior Member
i am just wondering, wouldn't the lock on from the manpads would turn on the warning for the chopper??? and how effective are the flares??
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
i am just wondering, wouldn't the lock on from the manpads would turn on the warning for the chopper??? and how effective are the flares??

I've seen a couple of helicopter shoot down videos myself. And whenever a SAM was used, the helicopter would be hit within seconds with no flares being fired. The helicopter has probably less than three seconds to react to the threat.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
I was just thinking in terms of statistical norm. The
Anyway, the pilots will definitely change their flight pattern.

They did change their flight pattern a few days ago when the fourth helicopter went down. And it didn't really change anything as today the Sea Hawk was shot down with a missile (as reported by witnesses who heard a missile fired before seeing the helicopter explode into a ball of fire).
 

akihh

New Member
i am just wondering, wouldn't the lock on from the manpads would turn on the warning for the chopper??? and how effective are the flares??

Almost all shoulder-launched missiles use passive infrared for homing in. In other words, these do not emit anything to be detectable. Even after launch newer ones are quite hard object to track - small missile frame (small target for radars, and you blow your own cover if using active radar much), quick burn-time (little time for heat sensors to pick it up) and leave very little smoke. And as Crazyinsane pointed out, usually they're shot from very close range which leaves no time to react.

In my understanding, even second-generation MANPADS are somewhat immune to flares, as they use advanced seekers:
SA-16 employs an IR guidance system using proportional convergence logic, and an improved two-color seeker, presumably IR and UV). The seeker is sensitive enough to home in on airframe radiation, and the two-color sensitivity is designed to minimize vulnerability to flares.
Source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Reports are coming in that a SIXTH helicopter has gone down in Iraq. Holy crap this is looking pretty dreadful now.:coffee:
 

lcortez

New Member
Yes,its certainly looking serious now!Have just seen on CNN website that the insurgents warned of having new ways to target Allied aircraft last Dec,apparently;spokesman for the Baath party,Khudair al-Hurshidia told the Ass Press in Damascus that the insurgency had recieved shoulder fired missiles and said 'we are going to surprise them'
Also the Islamic State of Iraq claimed responsibility for the Apache downed last Fri saying 'God has granted new ways for the soldiers of the State of Iraq to confront your aircraft'.
Looks like theres definatly a new source of weaponry for the insurgents,but with regard to missiles,wouldnt there be missile fragments in the wreckage,also where there any Israeli aircraft shot down by Hezbollah in the conflict with Israel last year?
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
So if its true they got some manpads, can we venture out and try to guess which ones would those be? Someone said that old stingers used in afghanistan have components with expiration date. That would leave just two suspects: igla, gained through various black market arms dealers...
OR, what i see as also likely, iranian made copy of chinese qw-2.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
So if its true they got some manpads, can we venture out and try to guess which ones would those be? Someone said that old stingers used in afghanistan have components with expiration date. That would leave just two suspects: igla, gained through various black market arms dealers...
OR, what i see as also likely, iranian made copy of chinese qw-2.

Ya, there are no more Afghan-era Stingers that are left for operational use. If there are, they are extremely few in number and probably will malfunction. The Igla is the biggest bet. The Bosnian and Serbian army for example had hundreds if not thousands of these missiles. Iglas probably won't be too hard to find in the black market. The problem is for these missiles to come into Iraq through a friendly country (probably either Syria or Saudi Arabia).

I can't see Iran supporting the Sunni insurgents. As I said before, the Baathists hate Iran and Iran would like to see them wiped out.
 
Top