Type 52C VS. Arleigh Burke

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
The current Aegis system is very formidable.

First, there are two main classes (and one version/under-class) of ships using Aegis-system:

1.) 27 CG-47 Ticonderoga class cruiser, with all the ships from CG-52 Bunker Hill being equipped with Mk.41 VLS (Vertical Launch System). As British experiences from Falklands showed, already this difference between ships equipped with rotating launchers and with vertical launch system is VERY important, because rotating launchers are prone to malfunctions in THE decisive moment.

Because of this with rotating launchers (Mk.26 in the case of CG-47), early five Ticos aren't considered as CVBG-capable these days any more, and they are either used for testing purposes (for example, USS Yorktown CG-48, testes some kind of AI-control systems) or some other tasks. Beneath that, they carry a lower number of SM-2 missiles, only 88 (44 in forward magazine and 44 on the rear), compared to no less but 61+61 (122) in Mk.41-equipped ships.

Ticos have four SPG-62 fire directors.

2.) The second class are approx 50ships large DD-51 Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Burkes are all equipped with Mk.41 VLS, and carry 29 SM-2s forward and 61 in the rear magazine withTHREE SPG-62 directors.

For AAW Aegis is a tough nut to crack.

To make things simply, think of Aegis as a gunslinger, equipped with "Gattling"-gun instead of "Navy Colt". Like most modern AAMs, SM-2 SAMs have three phases of flight. During the first, they are quided with INS, during the second they got mid-course updates from Aegis, and then go active in the third. Put this together with powerful computers of the ship and the number of directors, and you'll get the LOWEST (not maximum - its classified data) number of missiles an Aegis-equipped whip can guide at once: 12 for CG-47s and nine for DD-51s.

Additionally, two missiles can be fired and guided at the same target (if deemed needed, but it's a question of the time, because new missile will be fired all three seconds on average), which means CG-47 can guide - theoretically - up to 20 (not 24, as could be anticipated) missiles at once.

Now SPY-1s radars are basis of Aegis, and they consist of their antennas, transmitters, signal processors, control groups, and auxillary equipment. They have a wide frequency bandwidth that randomly radiates different frequencies across the bandwidth on a pulse-to-pulse basis (this only because somebody could come to the idea and tell me about some stand-off jamming of it...). They are highly resistant to ECM, because of this frequency diversity, and they can even sense jamming and automatically shift to different frequencies where less interference is present. Their digital signal-processing is also able to counter or supress jamming as well as sea clutter.

Additionaly to Aegis, all USN ships got also the NTU (New Threat Upgrade), which added the Mk.23 TAS pulse-doppler radar, designed to operate in a high-clutter environment "against" sea-skimming missiles, has range of almost 100 miles and can simultaneously track up to 54 targets.
 

vincelee

Junior Member
a salvo of 8 supersonic missiles not straining the system? What's your background IDont? Or are you just shooting off your mouth again?

By the way, that analogy is...horrible. Not a very high SAT scorer, are you?

for your information, illumination beams and tracking beams are different due to resolution requirements.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
vincelee said:
a salvo of 8 supersonic missiles not straining the system? What's your background IDont? Or are you just shooting off your mouth again?

By the way, that analogy is...horrible. Not a very high SAT scorer, are you?

for your information, illumination beams and tracking beams are different due to resolution requirements.


Hmm, a salvo of 8 supersonic missiles huh. Aegis was designed to neutralized the Soviet Union Backfire regiments that were firing massive numbers of AS6 missiles that have mach 3 speed. 8 missiles are a drop in the bucket.

Do you ever wonder why the US never bothered with them? At mach 2, it takes roughly 30 seconds to cross the horizon. Can your missile giudance system tell the difference between 1 Burke destroyer, 6 Chaff clouds, 3 Floating decoys, 1 helicopter emmiting the radar signiture of the a destroyer within 30 seconds? Further more, the missiles' bulk and speed gives it a very narrow flight path and detection radius. It can't manuever as great as a subsonic missile.

The Mk 41 vls can fire ALL of its standard missiles at the SAME TIME. The maximum number that can be guided by the Burke is classified but its greater than 16 (2 per missile). Then add ESSM and Phalax just in case.
 

vincelee

Junior Member
the figure I've seen is actually 24, the high is 28.

if you think softkill is that effective, why do you even need ESSM and RAM? Taking the SS-N-22 for example, a low flight altitude and high speed, not to mention the preprogrammed search pattern and evasive actions, makes terminal interception almost impossible. I don't know just how well the ESSM performs, but a system is never 100% fool proof.

the truth is, ECM on Burks, or any other US surface combatants, has never been tested against a real sea skimmer that goes past Mach 2. You can argue that the Vandal similated such and such, but I don't think the drone used the same seeker as the Sunburn. I suppose you can say that the Baseline 7 upgrade addresses some of these issues, but to say that 8 missiles bearing down on you poses no threat whatsoever is pushing it.

It really comes down to reaction time.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
vincelee said:
the figure I've seen is actually 24, the high is 28.

if you think softkill is that effective, why do you even need ESSM and RAM? Taking the SS-N-22 for example, a low flight altitude and high speed, not to mention the preprogrammed search pattern and evasive actions, makes terminal interception almost impossible. I don't know just how well the ESSM performs, but a system is never 100% fool proof.

the truth is, ECM on Burks, or any other US surface combatants, has never been tested against a real sea skimmer that goes past Mach 2. You can argue that the Vandal similated such and such, but I don't think the drone used the same seeker as the Sunburn. I suppose you can say that the Baseline 7 upgrade addresses some of these issues, but to say that 8 missiles bearing down on you poses no threat whatsoever is pushing it.

It really comes down to reaction time.

Why is the burden of proof is on the Aegis? Aegis and Standard have hit a super sonic sea skimmer (albeit a target). The sunburn is an untested design. I don't know about you, but Russian sales pitch never live up to their promise.

Here is a better questiong?

Which ship would your rather be? An Arleigh Burke with 8 Sunburns coming, or a Sovremenny with 8 harpoons or TASM coming?

How do you pre-program an evassive actions when you do not know ahead of time how a target ship will react?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Which ship would your rather be? An Arleigh Burke with 8 Sunburns coming, or a Sovremenny with 8 harpoons or TASM coming?

An Arliegh Burke of course. I know the systems on those ships work. After 9-11-2001 Tico's and A/B's were used for air defense of the US.

As we know USN ships never would operate alone in any combat situation. So a one on one confrontation between a 52C & A/B would probaly never happen.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
IDonT said:
Hmm, a salvo of 8 supersonic missiles huh. Aegis was designed to neutralized the Soviet Union Backfire regiments that were firing massive numbers of AS6 missiles that have mach 3 speed. 8 missiles are a drop in the bucket.

Do you ever wonder why the US never bothered with them? At mach 2, it takes roughly 30 seconds to cross the horizon. Can your missile giudance system tell the difference between 1 Burke destroyer, 6 Chaff clouds, 3 Floating decoys, 1 helicopter emmiting the radar signiture of the a destroyer within 30 seconds? Further more, the missiles' bulk and speed gives it a very narrow flight path and detection radius. It can't manuever as great as a subsonic missile.

The Mk 41 vls can fire ALL of its standard missiles at the SAME TIME. The maximum number that can be guided by the Burke is classified but its greater than 16 (2 per missile). Then add ESSM and Phalax just in case.

considering that the Chinese Aegis defense system is supposedly stolen from the Americans, I think it has to be based on something good, so it can potentially have good tracking software. We don't know. Also, nobody knows exactly the accuracy of YJ-85 against moving targets, but we do know it's range.
 

vincelee

Junior Member
"How do you pre-program an evassive actions when you do not know ahead of time how a target ship will react?"

do you really need to know? tracking principles of the SM-2/SPY-1 is well known, and the attacking missile has the initiative. I can be blind and deaf, but all I have to do is to run around in random order and I'm pretty sure that'll give the defender a harder time.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
An arleigh buek has a lower survivability chance. asuming both ships use aegis, the 52c would be able to shoot it's missles at a distance while staying out of range. and it wouyld be detected later due it's stealth feature. the burke has no stealth! if both ships ran out of missles, the 52c would win due to its faster firing guns.
 
MIGleader said:
An arleigh buek has a lower survivability chance. asuming both ships use aegis, the 52c would be able to shoot it's missles at a distance while staying out of range. and it wouyld be detected later due it's stealth feature. the burke has no stealth! if both ships ran out of missles, the 52c would win due to its faster firing guns.

The Type 052C does not use Aegis. Aegis is an American system, and only used on ships built by the Americans or built with American assistance. The US does not give such technology to the PRC. It is also unlikely that Israel or any other ally of the PRC had Aegis technology to give to the PRC. Maybe you mean the 052C uses technology that are supposed to perform the same role as the Aegis, or technology equivalent to the Aegis.
 
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