Type 022 Missile Boat

Re: 022 Purpose and Advantages for PLAN

Gollevainen said:

So I myself found Type022 almoust useless class for Blue Water navy, but then again we have to understand that PLAN is not Blue water yet. It is in transistion stage.

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Unlike the U.S., China faces threats from near its own shores. Even after it develops a blue water navy, there will still be the need for a significant brown water navy.

It would be silly, for example, to use expensive aircraft carriers near your own shore when you can use regular airfields and smaller vessels. Your sailors can sleep in comfortable land-based barracks.

... Ami.

Re: 022 Purpose and Advantages for PLAN

Kilo636 said:

I will think 022 is design specifically to deal with ROCN given the short distance of Strait of Taiwan.... Thus freeding more major warship of PLAN　deal with JMSDF and USN

other advantages of 022 will be its small size compare to corvette and frigate and high stability in rough sea.....

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I think another purpose is to basically update their coastal brown water fleet. Who knows, we may see different variations of the 022 aside from AShW. They've definitely experimented with different variations on the type 37s.

And also, another purpose is cheap export product to smaller navies around the world.

Re: 022 Purpose and Advantages for PLAN

Gollevainen said:

3) the air thread. The helicopter launched SSM that made its depute in Falklands and showed its muscles in 1990 Gulf War. expecially to smaller navies that assume to operate FACs as a David vs. Golyat aspect, the value of FACs have seriously dropped if the opponent has helicopter launched SSMs.
So to encounter this thread, the value of Air defences have rosed. But to place a velocity prone SAMs and their radars (as well as supporting ECM) to allready small hulls strains the desing even more....

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I don't think the Gulf War has shown FACs to be obsolete. I think it has shown that FACs as a standalone platform is obsolete. But if FACs operate under an umbrella provided either by land based units or sea based larger units, FACs still are very useful. Frigates in the age of sailing were considered to be main line ships. Then when dreadnoughts came about, they sorta faded away, considered obsolete. But frigates came back in a new design and served a new niche category. I think FACs will be the same. Many countries have coastlines shared closely with rival countries so not every navy strives for a blue water navy. In PLAN's case, I think it's highly conceivable they would want to build a blue water navy and also retain their brown water navy as well.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

China's Navy is evolving, not only their ships (platforms) but their sea based weapons. They are building some pretty decent ships to test out the basic platform's peformance and capabilities. The platform may be at sea for a period of time before its main weapons are perfected. So too, perhaps the 022.

Perhaps, there is a new missile with a longer range, better seekers and who knows what, that just might fit in those missiles houses on the stern. As they stand right now, one of them alone is not much of a threat, but get 6-8 operating together along with other stuff happening, combat air, submarines, Chinese Sov DDG's and so, than these guys, in the fog of war are pretty potent.

Bear in mind they won't be operating alone, and being somewhat stealthy,
pretty fast and a little on the small size who knows, they just might get overlooked or kind-of blend-in in all the tumult of battle. They just might get lost in the fog and then..........boom!

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

The RCS on those things are no better than a canoe. An AshM would have a hard time locking on to one, and that can make it difficult to destroy, while the speed makes it hard to catch. Working in packs and coordinated by a larger ship that provides, they constitute a major threat.

They should not be considered standalone vessels however, and they do add the burden on your command structure. They are short ranged and should be consdiered the point defence interceptor of the seas. They're your xenophobic kamekaze ships (not that the concept has its own merit).

After building and acquiring a series of destroyers, the PLAN appears trending back to smaller ships, the frigates, as it searches for the one true formula of getting the most bang for the buck. IMO, the next step they should go is bridge the gap between frigate and FAC, and the corvette is the best model. I like what I see with the new Russian frigates. Perhaps the PLAN should buy one an learn.

When I first saw them, I thought they're some kind of experimental ship. The PLAN would only build a few of them to try out. Never expect they would go so far to build them like Big Macs. The ship must have worked very well.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Everyship no matter what size has a role to play in a navy. I am wondering how Type 022 is useless for a blue water navy? Or maybe you want to rephase like yr words like Type 022 is useless for a blue water projection will sounds more logical....

FAC when mixed in heavy sea traffic lane is a menace to any enemy. You will has a great trouble identify it especially at night. In yr FCS or navigation radar,their radar signature is no different from ferry boats and fishing trawler or large Yacht. Especially type022 has stealth features,they will appear even smaller like some small boat. Their small size and fast speed gives them the advantage to do hugging with large ship in shipping lanes when lock on by anti-ship missiles..

To suggest FAC is near its end,is a clear absurd in modern naval warfare....

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One of the key features of blue water navy is that it doesent need to waste money on coastal defences. To call a navy a blue water one practically means that it is so strong that it can deny enemy to even consider to come operate under the inmidiate shore line of its own.
Lots of commoners forget that what FACs can do, bigger warships can do lot better, unless the sea conditions (such as really shallow waters) prevent it...but thats not case with Chinese shores.

Blue water navy would engage the enemy in the open waters where the distances and sea-states are too much for boat size vessels. missile attacs would be made with over-the-horizon distances where you need effective network of mid guidance and fleet commonality with them. If the enemy is on eyesigth of the navys own soil (where the FACs opearational area is) the battle is allready lost.

And if you bothered to take look on the current trends in world shipbuilding and compare them to the FAC highligth years of 1970-1980, you would understand yourself the evolution of this type of vessel and its logical shortliveness

I don't think the Gulf War has shown FACs to be obsolete. I think it has shown that FACs as a standalone platform is obsolete. But if FACs operate under an umbrella provided either by land based units or sea based larger units, FACs still are very useful. Frigates in the age of sailing were considered to be main line ships. Then when dreadnoughts came about, they sorta faded away, considered obsolete. But frigates came back in a new design and served a new niche category. I think FACs will be the same. Many countries have coastlines shared closely with rival countries so not every navy strives for a blue water navy. In PLAN's case, I think it's highly conceivable they would want to build a blue water navy and also retain their brown water navy as well.

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well if you need to tie your bigger units to protect small vessels (that has alwyas been substitute or obtional for the bigger vessels) You give the enemy a huge advantage and all the capacities of the bigger vessels are lost. And bigger vessels arent such for distant, half away around the world operations but in chinese cases, all its neighbours have also acces to open seas (and are trade dependaple from it) The role of PLA against them would be blocking this trade and not to venture into pointless one against one engagements with their own FACs in their own home waters. (That would be air forces task) FACs arent mented to work against themselves, but to bring SSMs to sea in most cheaper manners.

And to speak of Dreadnoughts and frigates....you have to understand that Frigate is a word that has been used several occasion and despite the name hangs on the concepts of frigates changes everyday....and With FACs we arent talking about their names, but the overal concept of boat size missile combatants.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

So you mean one need to be able to sink 6 US CBSs 200 km away to be qualified as a blue water navy? And what if a country has other countries less than 200 km away from her shore?

And for missile attack. Somebody told me on this forum that you can set search points on a missile, the missile travels to the search points one by one and open its radar at each point. By this way, a ship only need a rough information of the enemy ships' location to use its missiles attack those ships more than 100 km away.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

no. by blue water navy I mean navy that engages its opponents in open seas, before the enemy get into firing range of those targets it seeks to destroy. It is a navy that reach isent limited by anything shore based support structures.

China needs coastal defences for years to come before it is able to build its naval power to fit that requirment...one of my orginal point was that these cats are logical stopgap/midway desing in that preference. But if china would remain strongly realying on coastal defence doctrines and allows the enemy to come under fire distance of its shores, there would be better options for ship desings than Type22 around. Thats why I believe that these are to be last FAC in PLAN service, and when their time is to go to the brakers, the PLAN will be strong enough to controll all of the famous "inner Island chaing" and thus needs no inshore assault units, that have little use in open seas.

And of those set points, yeas those are possiple, but would require extensive eletronical qizmoes abroad the firing platform and there we are again in the ultimate limit of small, fast boats.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

What was the purpose of the sea shadow in the USN or the "High Speed Vehicle-Two (HSV2)- "?

Maybe from the 022 PLAN will have developed the technology to be able to have ships that also perform the same functions as the sea shadow and the HSV2 USS SWIFT.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

alwaysfresh said:

What was the purpose of the sea shadow in the USN or the "High Speed Vehicle-Two (HSV2)- "?

Maybe from the 022 PLAN will have developed the technology to be able to have ships that also perform the same functions as the sea shadow and the HSV2 USS SWIFT.

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This is the USN offical statement on the Swift:

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High-Speed Vessel - HSV

Description
The high-speed catamaran HSV 2 Swift was delivered to the U.S. Navy on August 15, 2003, and is currently serving operationally as an interim Mine Warfare Command and Support Ship (MCS) and Navy/Marine Corps experimentation vessel. Swift will be used to develop concepts, capabilities and reconfigurable mission modules for multiple mission areas in support of Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) program development.

Background
The Navy has taken advantage of the lessons learned from Joint Venture (HSV-X1) and the Army’s high-speed theater support vessel Spearhead (TSV-1X). The Bollinger-Incat team incorporated more than 75 enhancements in Swift during construction, and demonstrated unusual flexibility and a strong desire to meet the Navy’s needs. It took only ten months from contract award to ship delivery — record time for putting to sea a truly transformational ship.

Because Swift was built to meet commercial standards and intended for modular payloads, the Navy could use commercial high-speed vessel training courses for the crew, thus enabling her to proceed directly from new construction to deployment. She departed on her maiden deployment only 11 days after delivery.

Swift is a completely automated "sea frame" ship that can perform many missions. Building on lessons learned during the testing of Joint Venture and that ship’s wartime deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Swift brings new capabilities and unparalleled opportunities for tactical innovation to the Navy-Marine Corps team of the 21st century.

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