Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

sequ

Captain
Registered Member
Jealousy is overflowing this thread :p

Seems like the taxiing of the Kizilelma and reveal of the MMU has brought out the overt and covert jealous trolls...

At least be a man like someone and admit the skepticism was wrong ;)
 

CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Long coupled canard plane form does stretch the airframe length compared with conventional layout. More room for fuel/potentially larger room for weapons bay as well as superior trans/supersonic performance. Latter of which is why it is paramount that Kizilelma gets updated engines asap. A significant portion of the flight envelope may remain untapped until that happens.

One thing I also wonder is the size of the radome. It appears at least F-16 sized just based on eye-balling. There is definitely potential for a monster radar.
I mean we've already seen how small the engine was compared to the engine section of the plane. It is evident that this plane was designed with a larger diameter engine on mind which makes me suspect that instead of a twin engined Al-322f version, they will go for a single TF-6000 with an afterburner.
 

CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Kızılelma looks to me like an impressive technical achievement but will likely be pointless in real use. You are telling me you need a stealth fighter aircraft seemingly designed for air to air combat with AESA radar and air to air missiles etc. But then you make it remote controlled with a long distance operator?
That remote control and operator is because it will act in a deep strike role initially. I mean c'mon, AI fighting real pilots in an A-A fight won't happen at least till 2030, and Baykar is planning to combine their works with a more capable aircraft, not with a one that only has a single Al-25TLT as the powerplant. This also gives them plenty of time to work on their AI.


The first version (Kızılelma-A) is only going to be deployed as an AAM truck/loyal wingman, a forward deployed sensor or as a deep strike platform.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Kızılelma looks to me like an impressive technical achievement but will likely be pointless in real use. You are telling me you need a stealth fighter aircraft seemingly designed for air to air combat with AESA radar and air to air missiles etc. But then you make it remote controlled with a long distance operator? That is pretty much pointless. And it is one reason why the US Navy basically stopped major investment into things like this. Such systems will fail against peer opponents which can deny your use of communications. There is also no way the radar on this aircraft will outperform that of one in a heavy fighter. It does not even have the power supply to power one. The powerplant has 1/8th of the power of the powerplant in a heavy fighter. If I was designing a system of UCAVs I would do something completely different from this.

Then you chide the Japanese engine industry. But the thing is what TAI does in Turkey is little different from IHI Corporation in Japan license assembling engines for the Mitsubishi F-15J and F-2. And that engine you mentioned TAI is doing, which they have not even put into production yet that I can see at least, compare that with the F7 turbofan that IHI Corporation made for the Kawasaki P-1 and actually is in service...
It would need AI to be efficient... controlled by an operator is pointless in AA role.
 

sequ

Captain
Registered Member
Serial production begins on the domestic 4 cilinder engine. It ran between 30.000-40.000 km in testing. Also the 6 cilinder 600hp engine has been further developed into "generation 2". Testing of it will begin soon.

• BMC Power will start mass production of 400 HP engine within 1 month
• Subcontractors completed material production
• Assembly and test work will be carried out in December
• Engines will be in Vuran 4x4 at the beginning of 2023

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sequ

Captain
Registered Member
Reading about the struggles of developing the WS-10 and Kaveri engines, and seeing how TEI is carefully avoiding all the problems encountered in these two engine programs, I have no doubts anymore abut TEI's capability to develop a suitable engine for the MMU.

Problems during the development of the WS-10:

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TAI/TEI being aware of the problems of the Kaveri engine:

"Aviation means materials. For example, India has been trying to make engines for about 45 years. Finally they couldn't, they gave up. They even tried to get help from the French. They redesigned the engine. They said let's give it a billion euros. But they can't. This is because the engines are very heavy. They don't have material technologies, they couldn't make their software. Therefore, this is the plane they developed Tejas, but the engine they call kaveri could never meet that plane, despite the support of the French. Again, they had to go and install GE's 404 engine. That's why the work we do at TEI is very important."

TUSAŞ R&D Procurement Manager Ahmet Özşahin.

STM thinktank 2021, Page 135

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