Trade War with China

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solarz

Brigadier
I'm glad you realize there are political systems that reward greed. Have you considered why such systems exist when we can look at america and see that it clearly does not benefit the majority of working americans? Keep in mind that america allegedly has a democratic system. The reason is that wealth is inextricable from political power. The capitalist class reinvest the wealth produced by the workers into changing the laws of the land to favor capital. It doesn't matter if there is a democratic or authoritarian system, it doesn't matter if corruption is legal like in america or illegal like in China. The rational action for a capitalist is to turn profits into more profits using whatever means possible and buying political power is quite cheap. When bribing a few senators cost less that opening a new factory and gives better returns which option is the better choice?
And why can you claim China punishes greed? It is because the Chinese state arose out of a worker's movement that took power away from the capitalist class, empowering the working class. Hence, it is called the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, ever other country except maybe Cuba and the DPRK are under the Dictatorship of Capital. But there are forces in China who are trying to reverse the progress made by the Chinese people and the CPC. Is it in the interest of a Chinese capitalist to operate under a political system that favors the working class? No, he would be much better off under a system like the one that exists in america. So for the Chinese capitalist who has wealth and lives in an unfavorable political system, the rational course of actions is to use part of that wealth to change the politics of China. Such a change harms the majority of Chinese people and should be opposed.

You might want to ask Jack Ma whether he'd prefer to operate in China or in an oligarch-controlled country like Ukraine.

Capitalists seek profit, yes, but that does not necessarily mean they need, or want, to seek political power. This is where your naive theory falls apart. Certainly for billionaires like Jack Ma or Wang Jianlin, they would make far more money in a dynamic society like China than in a corrupt country like Ukraine, so it certainly would not be in their interest to turn China into Ukraine.

Wealth is not a giant pie where someone taking a bite means less pie for you. Wealth is human productivity. At its basis, it's how much food and energy human labor can produce. Two people working together can generate more wealth than each person working separately.

As for the problems of America, I think Jack Ma said it best. It's not the Chinese or even the "1 percent" that's responsible for your current problems. It's the fact that you keep waging these wars. Look at how much money the Iraq and Afghanistan war cost, and think what the US would be like if that money had gone into infrastructure. Now, you can blame the military industrial complex for this, but it wasn't the MIC that gave Bush a second term. When Bush was preparing to invade Iraq, the American public was the only people who believed it was a good idea. Everyone else in the world knew it was going to be a disaster however it turned out.
 
In US people pay about 40% on taxes in many states and don't even get pensions (not counting social security) or free health care. Health care is ridiculously expensive, tuition is ridiculously expensive, and housing is ridiculously expensive, and salaries are not great and it's really easy to reach the salary cap. And roads and airports and transit systems are all old and the cities are dirty and smelly. But at least unemployment is low. Every country has its issues!
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China's development is only a miracle because of the number of people involved. All industrializing countries have followed a similar pattern, UK, Germany, Japan, USA, USSR. But isn't that an interesting list of countries? Two are "free markets", two were authoritarian state capitalist, and the USSR was not a market economy at all. I would say the USSR going from a semi feudal society to exploring space in 40 years while winning a civil war and a world war is more of a miracle than China's reform and opening up which occurred in an era of peace. The key is not capitalism, the key is improving the productivity of labor. That way the working people can produce what they need and also be able to invent new things and new ideas. All capitalism does is tie the improvement of labor productivity to the profit motive while throwing away planning. The capitalist economy prioritizes what is profitable, not necessarily what improves productivity. There are incredibly inefficient allocation of labor occurring under capitalism right now. For example PhD scientists are working for advertising corporations like google or facebook using mathematical modeling to increase internet ad clicks (Chinese "tech" companies are doing the same). I'm pretty sure the USSR would not have won WWII if it's scientists were dreaming up better ways to make advertisements.
China is lucky because the CPC still has the power to direct the economy into productive development, but as I detailed in my response to solarz, there are reactionary forces in China that are trying to bring about a full capitalist restoration. This is why limiting the wealth and political power of the capitalist class in China is important. The end goal should be the complete elimination of the capitalist class in China. Or if you prefer a more positive perspective, the end goal is to make every single Chinese person own the businesses and industry of China, that is, to make every Chinese person a capitalist. It doesn't matter which perspective you take the functional result is the same.
Finally, do you really think Bangladesh, Vietnam, Laos can develop using China's path? What about the various African countries? There is an environmental cost to industrialization and the costs impact every country and everyone on earth. That door is closed now, China will be the last industrialized country in the traditional sense of the word. Newer options may arise in the future though.

I don't understand what are you trying to say here that capitalist is bad for China and Soviet Union is the best model for economic development
For pete sake Soviet Union implode and it does not exist anymore Communism only bring misery and poverty to soviet union state and her people resulting in break up of Soviet Union into don't know maybe 10 states

China is only communist in the name only 60 or 70% of production mean in China is owned by private company France is probably more socialist than China
I wonder if you ever look at my graph from 1950 to 1980 Chinese GDP percapita barely budge at $300 per year
That completely show the failure of communism in China

Communism is so against the grain of Chinese people that is why it failed miserable Only when Deng take the reign of power China start to get better When he persuade people to let some people get rich first. And with his pronouncement that to get rich is glorious, he liberate and let the tremendous force of wealth creating spirit loose

Now we can see the result . So yes Capitalism is the China's salvation from poverty destitute and hopeesness
 

canniBUS

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't understand what are you trying to say here that capitalist is bad for China and Soviet Union is the best model for economic development
For pete sake Soviet Union implode and it does not exist anymore Communism only bring misery and poverty to soviet union state and her people resulting in break up of Soviet Union into don't know maybe 10 states

China is only communist in the name only 60 or 70% of production mean in China is owned by private company France is probably more socialist than China
I wonder if you ever look at my graph from 1950 to 1980 Chinese GDP percapita barely budge at $300 per year
That completely show the failure of communism in China

Communism is so against the grain of Chinese people that is why it failed miserable Only when Deng take the reign of power China start to get better When he persuade people to let some people get rich first. And with his pronouncement that to get rich is glorious, he liberate and let the tremendous force of wealth creating spirit loose

Now we can see the result . So yes Capitalism is the China's salvation from poverty destitute and hopeesness
You are a huge hypocrite if you reject western propaganda about China today while spewing out CIA talking points on the China and USSR of 1950s-70s. Communism laid the foundations for China's development today by producing educated people who had work ethic. And slandering communism in the USSR is even more laughable. Going from a semi-feudal society to a superpower in 40 years while winning a civil war and a world war is an unmatched accomplishment. The later "decline" was simply the economy of the USSR maturing and slowing to 3-4% growth per year. By the way that is better than most mature capitalist economies. China's economy is maturing as well now so how can China deal with this? Capitalism is a temporary cancerous growth and it needs to feed. You will experience exponential growth and then the cancer either grows too large and kills you or you kill the cancer and progress to communism. China's development comes from an influx of trade partners willing to buy from China. It didn't matter that China was adopted a capitalist mode of production after 1979, what mattered was technology and funds entering the country boosted the productivity of the Chinese people. You can say China developed while it had a capitalist mode of production but you cannot say capitalism was the cause of China's development. As I said in my response, improving productivity is the most important factor in creating a prosperous society. The west "helped" China for geopolitical reasons. Now that the USSR is gone, the west wants to destroy the economy of China with this trade war. One belt one road and Made in China 2025 are measures to offload China's economic capacity onto non-western countries to sustain the current economic model in China (production for exchange, not for use, etc.). But rather than killing the capitalist cancer in China, the CPC is trying to protect it.
I'm glad you brought up the collapse of the USSR, or more accurately, the illegal secession of the RSFSR, Ukrainian SSR, and Belorussian SSR from the Union instigated by certain leaders within the CPSU. The Red Army should have crushed these rebellions. The USSR was not even in a capitalist mode of production yet the CPSU was infiltrated by liberals and fifth columnist reactionaries who destroyed the Union against the democratic wishes of the people. These capitalist roaders became the oligarchs of the illegitimate states like Russia and Ukraine by stealing the industry built and owned by the Soviet people.
Remember the USSR did not have capitalism, so how much more dangerous of a situation is China in today due to it's capitalist mode of production? How many fifth columnists are there working with foreign powers against the state and the people and are they in positions of authority? And lets assume that Chinese capitalists are somehow loyal to China, that doesn't change the fact that China faces many problems in the future. The capitalist economy won't necessarily allocate labor to address future challenges. China does't need to protect it's capitalists, it needs to ensure that the hard work of the Chinese people goes into improving society and solving problems. That means fixing the environment, providing elder care, making new discoveries to eliminate the need to use fossil fuels. What China does not need are highly educated workers inventing new ways of advertising, or new ways to loaning money, or producing hollow entertainment commodities, basically the stuff that keeps western capitalism afloat these days. In short, central planning under the leadership of a Marxist-Leninist state is the way forward. Be principled, be consistent, reject all liberal propaganda that the west tires to push. This is not the world of 1900 when there were only 2 billion people and when we had the time to let the market figure things out.

You realize GDP is a garbage measure and even the CPC knows that a better statistic for economic livelihood is needed. Countries can add all sorts of "economic activity" into GDP calculations. The USSR did not collapse, it was illegally dismantled by traitors within the party.

Wealth is not a giant pie where someone taking a bite means less pie for you. Wealth is human productivity. At its basis, it's how much food and energy human labor can produce. Two people working together can generate more wealth than each person working separately.

As for the problems of America, I think Jack Ma said it best. It's not the Chinese or even the "1 percent" that's responsible for your current problems. It's the fact that you keep waging these wars. Look at how much money the Iraq and Afghanistan war cost, and think what the US would be like if that money had gone into infrastructure. Now, you can blame the military industrial complex for this, but it wasn't the MIC that gave Bush a second term. When Bush was preparing to invade Iraq, the American public was the only people who believed it was a good idea. Everyone else in the world knew it was going to be a disaster however it turned out.

Thank you for agreeing with me, wealth is human productivity. So remind me why we need middle men called capitalists? Of course Ma avoids away from criticizing the capitalists class in america, that would be criticizing his own class. Where is his loyalty now? Unfortunately he forgot that the MIC is composed of private corporations who operate on the principle of profit maximization, they are a major player in shaping the policy of america to benefit their bottom line. It is exactly as you say, the productivity of the america working class could have gone to improving domestic living standards. Instead it goes to fattening up the owners of lockmart, raytheon, and the co because the MIC and other capitalists write the laws and run the state. It is in their interest to wage war against Iraq and get those checks. They certainly don't care about the living conditions of the typical american or how many Iraqis die. By the way, it is also in their interest to raise tensions with China, threaten the Chinese people since that gets them cash as well. I wonder how much that plays into this trade war? Not only is capitalism harming China, capitalism in other countries are also harming China, and you expect me to believe that capitalism is some wonderful thing?
 
just a technical:
... break up of Soviet Union into don't know maybe 10 states

...
at the beginning of 1990s there had been fifteen (15) so called Socialistic Republics within the U. S. S. R., all then became independent at some point

anyway you have a job here:
You are a huge hypocrite if you reject western propaganda about China today while spewing out CIA talking points on the China and USSR of 1950s-70s. ...
 

montyp165

Senior Member
I feel this point bears repeating as it remains a significant element to this day: Capitalism is constructive only up to a certain point, as Marx and Lenin had analyzed in their various writings. Things such as capital investment and industrial development helped break up the economic power of landed aristocrats, creation of economic opportunities for people that weren't part of the old elites, expand economic productivity beyond the inherent qualities of land and the obsoleting of slavery/serfdom were such major benefits. However, concentrated capital in a developed capitalist economy (late stage capitalism) is quite a destructive thing both back when Lenin wrote about Imperialism as the Highest Stage of Capitalism and the current economic situation in the US, because it invariably entails a type of sociopathic economic activity that consumes and consolidates economic value onto itself regardless of who or what are destroyed in the process (and the Randian/Niestzchean justifications used by the US capitalists for such behaviour exacerbates all of this). The lack of proper healthcare in the US, the stagnation and even regression of family earnings over time, lack of investment in infrastructure and community services while giving tax breaks to the wealthy are all part and parcel of this methodology. For China's position capitalism is currently constructive but not indefinitely so, which is why Chinese leadership needs to be mindful of this and plan for different approaches.

Human development for the long term requires a social basis of economic activity where the well-being of people communities is an intrinsic part of economic value and functionality or else total global conflict becomes only a matter of when and not if.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Because we are one country. There is no "wealthy people" military and "poor people" military. When China makes achievements, wealthy and poor Chinese people all cheer for the same flag. When wealthy Chinese people make contributions to make China stronger, poor Chinese people enjoy that benefit just the same. Poor Chinese people can work hard to become rich Chinese people; rich Chinese people can make mistakes and become poor Chinese people; in essence, we are still the same, just Chinese people. But Chinese people and Americans/Europeans/Africans/Latinos are different completely.
You make a few assumptions, each need proving on they own.
1st : each Chinese has the same amount of nationalistic sentiment. So, if you select random 100 Chinese , then each of them will have the same say N amount of nationalistic view, and the average nationalistic view above any subgroup of population will be the same .
1.a. If in 100 Chinese 15 is very nationalistic, 80 neutral and 10 is "globalists " : D then the average calculation will show a high average nationalistic view, but randomly selected individuals usually will not be interested about any common good.
1.b. You saying that the personal gain will have less vale for this persons than the whole gain of the Chinese nation.
2nd : the Chinese political class/ billionaires sharing the same nationalistic view like the Chinese known by you
2.a. At the same time it mans that the nationalistic view ( not broadcasted, but real actions ) will help a person to accumulate huge wealth
2.b.You say that if the given person will work not in accordance / against the Chinese interest then his/her money making ability will be the same like if she/he works in the Chinese interest.


Yes, family different from outsider. If my brother hits my car, I won't ask him to pay. If my mother is cooking and burns down my house, I don't ask her to pay. But if same thing happens with a stranger, he must pay every cent of damage. When Chinese people get rich, their money is paid as tax to the Chinese government and the Chinese government uses it to make a military to protect my future and the future of my children. When Americans get rich, their profit becomes taxes paid to the US government for creating a military with which to wreak havoc all across Asia and threaten the security/prosperity of myself and my children. That is the difference.
The data showing that the biggest reason of the growing wealth gap is the capability of the wealthy to evade / avoid the national governments taxation system by using the international "no mans land" markets.

Actually, the fact in China the wealth gap is high, and the consumption ratio is small for the households showing that the average household is the one who pay taxes and support everything, and the wealthy spending his time to invest and earn money ,without paying too much taxes.

I mean, if the household income ratio is only 39% and falling then the wealthy has way less taxes than the average Chinese.

If the companies sharing the same burden like the households then they have less money to invest, and the households ore money to consume.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
The difference is that while Chinese billionaires have wealth, they do not get to make the laws of the land and cannot threaten the security of the people. A dominant US, on the other hand, does threaten the security of the Chinese people.

No, Chinese billionaires are not the political class. You obviously don't even know what the political class is in China.

I don't think anyone has a clue who has to political power in China, and how it is distributed .

It is hard/nearly impossible to tell even for the US, but it is impossible to tell in China.

However this fact is supports that the best way to get wealthy in China is if you have the right connections.

Few pages before someone bought up a link about the importance of the banks in the Chinese investments hurrah.

If there is a single decision maker in a bank then you have a lot of opportunity to make favors for friends, and make a powerful connection system by giving the loans to the right people.

The banks are under government control, so there is a clear connection between government -> banks -> wealthy individuals.

By the list of banks it is visible the biggest banks are government owned in China ,so the above link works.
source:
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I repeat it with other words:
IF you don't want to accept that one group of people ( USA) more wealthy and control another group of people ( China) then why you accept that one group of people in (billionaires in China) control another group of people ( everyone else who is not billionaire ) ?

Or the master with the whip is more acceptable if speak Chinese, and his / her ancestors are Chinese ? And the problem of the USA masters is they language and ancestry ?

And yes, the billionaires in chine = with the politician class. They are wealthy because connected and close to the fire.
And the current wealth gap is generated by them, and the "rebalancing to consumption" means that Xi has to conquer the whole politician and economical elite of China, with less blood than during the french/russian/usa ect. "rebalancing" .


I can't believe you're trying to equate the idea of why it is in a nation's interest to grow more wealthy in the context of geopolitics to match a competing nation, with a nation's internal wealth distribution among its populace.


Now, I personally disagree with the idea of structural, long term wealth inequality within a nation as a desirable outcome.
I think the relationship of higher reporting of wellbeing statistics (health outcomes, social trust etc) within nations with more equal wealth distribution is a causative one, and optimally speaking every nation should seek to attain a more equal wealth and income distribution within their country, but also preferably without compromising a minimum level of wealth and living standards, and while not compromising other important aspects of national wellbeing including industry, business and innovation.


But it is one thing to debate about the rationale for why more equal wealth/income distribution within a nation is desirable (or undesirable), and one completely different thing to talk about aggregate national wealth in the context of geopolitical relationships between two competing world powers.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
I think you lack knowledge about Chinese entrepreneurship. I can tell you that Capitalist is in the DNA of every Chinese we celebrate independence and striking it on our own There is saying it is better to own your business even if it small rather than work for other people
It is not correct to say Chinese billionaire is the result of crony capitalism Man like Alibaba chairman Jack Ma start from the bottom Latter on they might join the communist party in order to safeguard their business adn be on the good side of the government But not to use the government
They in return empowered million of people to strike on their own and buy and sell on the platform that they created

There was a few chap in Eastern Europe in the 80s who made businesses ,and get wealthy ( example Rubik ) but it didn't meant that the "wealthy class" wasn't equal with the political class.

And many forget that if there is no elections with a chance to loose it then a government office equal with a lifelong powerful position, worth million or billions .
In the CCCP a local party leader hasn't got wealth on paper, but other ways he had a life style that required billions $ of wealth in the USA, but with less risk to loose it.
 
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