Trade War with China

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
I can't believe you're trying to equate the idea of why it is in a nation's interest to grow more wealthy in the context of geopolitics to match a competing nation, with a nation's internal wealth distribution among its populace.


Now, I personally disagree with the idea of structural, long term wealth inequality within a nation as a desirable outcome.
I think the relationship of higher reporting of wellbeing statistics (health outcomes, social trust etc) within nations with more equal wealth distribution is a causative one, and optimally speaking every nation should seek to attain a more equal wealth and income distribution within their country, but also preferably without compromising a minimum level of wealth and living standards, and while not compromising other important aspects of national wellbeing including industry, business and innovation.


But it is one thing to debate about the rationale for why more equal wealth/income distribution within a nation is desirable (or undesirable), and one completely different thing to talk about aggregate national wealth in the context of geopolitical relationships between two competing world powers.
You talk about " national interest" and that is theoretically an aggregate over all citizens interest, but in reality it is overestimating the interest of the political / economical ruling class.

So, my issue with your statement is starting with the definition of the national interest.

The difference between the aggregated interest of everyone in a country versus the interest of the political / economical elite is visible if we analyse the NK or USA foreign politics.

Additional there is a strong urge by every person to keep/increase his relative wealth , means that the subgroup of wealthy interested in the grow of his own wealth, not the aggregated grow of wealth. So, if the segregated wealth grow then it is more as a side effect, not an targeted event.

If we accept this then from the average Chinese citizen standpoint there is little difference between the Chinese/usa controllers.

They are either neutral, or blocking elements in the quest of the average person to live better ( and it is true nearly for every country , except Switzerland )
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You talk about " national interest" and that is theoretically an aggregate over all citizens interest, but in reality it is overestimating the interest of the political / economical ruling class.

So, my issue with your statement is starting with the definition of the national interest.

The difference between the aggregated interest of everyone in a country versus the interest of the political / economical elite is visible if we analyse the NK or USA foreign politics.

That could be argued to be true -- the geopolitical interests of a nation may not directly reflect the aggregate interests of a nation's populace. I can agree with that on a superficial level.

But...

Additional there is a strong urge by every person to keep/increase his relative wealth , means that the subgroup of wealthy interested in the grow of his own wealth, not the aggregated grow of wealth. So, if the segregated wealth grow then it is more as a side effect, not an targeted event.

If we accept this then from the average Chinese citizen standpoint there is little difference between the Chinese/usa controllers.

That logic is completely ludicrous.

Let's do a simple thought experiment. Country A and Country B are locked in a cold war, a geopolitical competition. In both Country A, and Country B, their geopolitical interests do not perfectly reflect the interests of their nation's populace.
Country A's geopolitical interests do not reflect Populace A's aggregate interests perfectly, and Country B's geopolitical interests do not reflect Populace B's aggregate interests perfectly either.

However, that does not mean that from the perspective of Populace A, the geopolitical interest of Country A and the geopolitical interest of Country B are "little different" -- remember, Country A and Country B are locked in a geopolitical competition.
So, yes, Country A's geopolitical interest may not reflect all of the demands and wants of its Populace A, however Country B's geopolitical interest would most certainly cause significant harm and result in the deliberate undermining of Populace A's interests as well.

From the perspective of Populace A, the "difference" is one where your own government Country A's geopolitical interests may not be able to achieve all of your own desires, but the government of Country B and their geopolitical interests are directly hostile to both the interests of Country A and Populace A.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
If we accept this then from the average Chinese citizen standpoint there is little difference between the Chinese/usa controllers.
I see you're now putting some Chomsky in your "salad" bowl. Hilarious. So China should accept American subjugation because there's "little difference between the Chinese/usa controllers"? No, there is a vast gulf of difference and if you had a shred of self-respect you would understand that.

It struck me reading through this thread that at the core of every China-bashing Westerner is a profound sense of betrayal - "but.. but you were supposed to become liberal/socialist/democratic/Christian/capitalist/Western, China!!!"
I want to give the people that harbour such childish notions a sincere piece of advice that I hope they'll have the wisdom to take: China is not your girlfriend that cheated on you. China was, is, and will remain out for itself and itself alone.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You make a few assumptions, each need proving on they own.
1st : each Chinese has the same amount of nationalistic sentiment. So, if you select random 100 Chinese , then each of them will have the same say N amount of nationalistic view, and the average nationalistic view above any subgroup of population will be the same .
1.a. If in 100 Chinese 15 is very nationalistic, 80 neutral and 10 is "globalists " : D then the average calculation will show a high average nationalistic view, but randomly selected individuals usually will not be interested about any common good.
1.b. You saying that the personal gain will have less vale for this persons than the whole gain of the Chinese nation.
2nd : the Chinese political class/ billionaires sharing the same nationalistic view like the Chinese known by you
2.a. At the same time it mans that the nationalistic view ( not broadcasted, but real actions ) will help a person to accumulate huge wealth
2.b.You say that if the given person will work not in accordance / against the Chinese interest then his/her money making ability will be the same like if she/he works in the Chinese interest.
1a-2b are all stupid, Mr. Salad Bowl. Everything you answer back is stupid. See all the Chinese people understand what I'm saying; it's just you incessantly coming back with stupid questions/comments/suggestions. I'm tired of these low IQ questions because you can't understand anything.

Everything you said are small exceptions and caveats that are not to be considered when working with big data like the population of China. Two assumptions are undoubtedly true (and they're so simple I wouldn't have to explain them to anything with a double digit IQ). 1) Chinese people pay taxes to China and Americans pay taxes to the US; it has nothing to do with your nationalism or what you want your taxes to be spent on. 2) Out of 1,000 Chinese people, the average sentiment will skewer heavily towards China over the USA and out of 1,000 Americans, the average sentiment will skewer heavily towards the US over China; this data is not affected by Chinese people who hate themselves or Americans who join ISIS.

I'm talking about big picture: "I said eating good food is important for growth and survival," and your small mind goes "No, 1a) That piece of food could have been poisoned, 1b) there could be small pieces of glass embedded in that food, 2a) maybe in the future, science will find that that kind of food in actually unhealthy for you, 3a)..." Just shut up; this is verbal diarrhea for you LOL

The data showing that the biggest reason of the growing wealth gap is the capability of the wealthy to evade / avoid the national governments taxation system by using the international "no mans land" markets.
Big picture: Chinese people pay taxes to China and Americans pay taxes to the US. Everyone wants to pay less taxes but it has no effect on this big picture.
Actually, the fact in China the wealth gap is high, and the consumption ratio is small for the households showing that the average household is the one who pay taxes and support everything, and the wealthy spending his time to invest and earn money ,without paying too much taxes.
I am in favor of lowering wealth gap, but I need you to provide a source on how much of Chinese tax is paid by billionaires and how much by regular citizens to even consider your point as possibly not falsified.

I mean, if the household income ratio is only 39% and falling then the wealthy has way less taxes than the average Chinese.

If the companies sharing the same burden like the households then they have less money to invest, and the households ore money to consume.
What is "household income ratio"? Ratio to what? Are you making up metrics? LOL Once again, provide source for the wealthy Chinese paying way less tax than the average Chinese and compare that to the proportion of overall wealth owned by the wealthy against the overall wealth owned by the regular people. You've got a lot of homework to do if you want to keep mumbling about this.

from the average Chinese citizen standpoint there is little difference between the Chinese/usa controllers.
Ahhhahahaahahaahahahaaaaahahhhhhhhaaaahahahaahahahaaaaaaaa You really made me laugh. What a poor pathetic attempt to try to make Chinese people fight against each other! Very very sad. I tell you the CIA employs people with more intelligence in their pinky toe than you in your "brain" to create NGOs in China to try to incite class warfare in China, and they all failed. You are literally throwing paper airplanes at the sky trying to reach the moon with your embarrassing attempts.

I told you once before: poor Chinese people can become rich Chinese people by hard work and intellect and rich Chinese people can become poor Chinese people by stupidity and poor decisions. Rich or poor, we are still the same and can become one another, but Chinese people and Americans are different animals. To be dominated by your own countryman is to be reminded that hard work and intelligent thinking are key to success; to accept domination by another race or nation is to accept that you are genetically inferior.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
The USSR was not even in a capitalist mode of production yet the CPSU was infiltrated by liberals and fifth columnist reactionaries who destroyed the Union against the democratic wishes of the people. These capitalist roaders became the oligarchs of the illegitimate states like Russia and Ukraine by stealing the industry built and owned by the Soviet people.

Only losers blame "fifth columnists" for their failures. One of the most laughable excuses the KMT gives for their loss is that the CCP had too many spies. That excuse is no less laughable here.


Thank you for agreeing with me, wealth is human productivity. So remind me why we need middle men called capitalists? Of course Ma avoids away from criticizing the capitalists class in america, that would be criticizing his own class. Where is his loyalty now? Unfortunately he forgot that the MIC is composed of private corporations who operate on the principle of profit maximization, they are a major player in shaping the policy of america to benefit their bottom line. It is exactly as you say, the productivity of the america working class could have gone to improving domestic living standards. Instead it goes to fattening up the owners of lockmart, raytheon, and the co because the MIC and other capitalists write the laws and run the state. It is in their interest to wage war against Iraq and get those checks. They certainly don't care about the living conditions of the typical american or how many Iraqis die. By the way, it is also in their interest to raise tensions with China, threaten the Chinese people since that gets them cash as well. I wonder how much that plays into this trade war? Not only is capitalism harming China, capitalism in other countries are also harming China, and you expect me to believe that capitalism is some wonderful thing?

1- You need middle men for everything. If you had a modicum understanding of how the real world works, you'd realize that.

2- Jack Ma is loyal to China.

3- It wasn't the MIC that believed Powell's lies about Iraq's WMD. It wasn't the MIC that gave Bush a second term. The MIC is just an enabler, the real responsibility lies on the American public.
 
now I read
MOFCOM: China-US trade issues can only be resolved through 'equal' talks
2018-08-30 17:16 GMT+8
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The trade issues between China and the US can only be resolved through "equal" negotiations, Chinese commerce ministry spokesman Gao Feng said.

He also told a regular briefing on Thursday that the two sides will keep in contact regarding future arrangements for talks.

He reiterated that China will firmly conduct the reform and opening up of its economy at its own pace regardless of the pressures exerted by the US, as well as uphold the multilateral trading system and free trade.

During six days of hearings held in Washington last week, more than 90 percent of over 300 representatives from the US and China voiced opposition to the Trump Administration's tariff plan on China, Gao said.

And China hopes the US will face up to the voices of the Chinese and American industries and consumers, the long-term industrial chain cooperation between the two countries, as well as the fundamental interests of the people of both countries, he added.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
china-gdp-per-capita.png

Can you bring a diagramm of profits of western companies moved to special economic zones employing workers for 1$ a day? But you know, don't do it , it could break our monitors and reach the ceiling. Thats the unspeakable story of human exploitation. One other thing, can you tell me what system we have to impose here in Greece, because as fas as i know we have capitalism also and is not working any more. I described you older periods that worked but suddenly and saddly it doesn't work any more.

The USSR's socialist model is the only one until nowdays that really worked and was really close to what is called scientific socialism. Until Kosygin distribution and market oriented reforms
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back at 1965 ,the overall growth of USSR was faraway from anything the manking ever witnessed. Even western US allies didn't reach that levels instead of money injections of the Marshall plan
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( money surplus of capitalist arms makers who made great bussiness during WW2 ,where not a single bullet landed at the soil of USA ). Funny story that Chairman Mao Zedong criticised CPSU as traitors for these reforms...LOL. After these reforms the infamous soviet stagnation took over. Overall , USSR made great achievements without any special economic zones and offering it's people for exploitation to capitalists. Even now USA aren't able to make a rocket engine as capable as soviet RD 180 design. Even now China can't make a proper military jet engine. Don't forget from whom the blueprints of anykind of missiles,HQ's,J's etc etc were reverse engineered...Or to talk about the soviet ternary computer systems (later cut due costs as USSR's economy went from a produstion driven to a distribution driven)which now western scientists admits that was much more capable but now it's not cost effective to turn R&D and production lines to ternary systems istead of binary
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.Another funny story that ternary system inspired by philosophy , the dialectical scheme of thesis,antithesis,synthesis

No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to take a job.

Chinese workers are willing to take on low wage jobs because its a much better alternative to not having such jobs. In the 1980's, before we came to Canada, and before the market reforms came to Shanghai, my mom was a doctor and my dad was a university lecturer. My mom's salary was 60 yuan a month, my dad 45 yuan. Those were the wages paid under the government controlled economy.

My cousin barely finished high school and went to work for the Shanghai Volkswagen factory in the 90's. I don't know what exactly his salary was, but you can be certain it was only a fraction of the salary paid to a western worker. Yet, even that fraction made him quite well off at the time compared to everyone else in China. So who's being exploited here?

My friend solarz the reason that PRC was at so low level those days was not the scientific socialist system ( that never trully built in PRC ) , but the major set backs and mistakes that CPC made ,like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. These "revolutions" had nothing to do with scientific socialism , they moreover contributed to the post Revolution( the real one,1949 ) turbulence and overall stagnation. Anyway Mao Zedong although a great ispirator, was a very questionable political figure and a big egoist. :)

we should move to Chinese economics section i think LOL
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Can you bring a diagramm of profits of western companies moved to special economic zones employing workers for 1$ a day? But you know, don't do it , it could break our monitors and reach the ceiling. Thats the unspeakable story of human exploitation. One other thing, can you tell me what system we have to impose here in Greece, because as fas as i know we have capitalism also and is not working any more. I described you older periods that worked but suddenly and saddly it doesn't work any more.

The USSR's socialist model is the only one until nowdays that really worked and was really close to what is called scientific socialism. Until Kosygin distribution and market oriented reforms
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
back at 1965 ,the overall growth of USSR was faraway from anything the manking ever witnessed. Even western US allies didn't reach that levels instead of money injections of the Marshall plan
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
( money surplus of capitalist arms makers who made great bussiness during WW2 ,where not a single bullet landed at the soil of USA ). Funny story that Chairman Mao Zedong criticised CPSU as traitors for these reforms...LOL. After these reforms the infamous soviet stagnation took over. Overall , USSR made great achievements without any special economic zones and offering it's people for exploitation to capitalists. Even now USA aren't able to make a rocket engine as capable as soviet RD 180 design. Even now China can't make a proper military jet engine. Don't forget from whom the blueprints of anykind of missiles,HQ's,J's etc etc were reverse engineered...Or to talk about the soviet ternary computer systems (later cut due costs as USSR's economy went from a produstion driven to a distribution driven)which now western scientists admits that was much more capable but now it's not cost effective to turn R&D and production lines to ternary systems istead of binary
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.Another funny story that ternary system inspired by philosophy , the dialectical scheme of thesis,antithesis,synthesis
we should move to Chinese economics section i think LOL

There is no more exploited worker in China The government set minimum wage standard and as far as I know it is at least $600/month Far away from $1 that you quote. As well they are cover by social security like paid vacation, pension and yes even unemployment and health care paid by the contribution of company,worker, state
I don't know where you get "exploited worker" idea from

Communism is dead It is relegated to heap in history garbage so stop praising communism. The system work for a while until they spend too much on military and defense which take a big chunk of national wealth I think at one time they spend something like 20% of GDP for military while neglecting civilian technology and consumer economy
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Resulting in long line for everything from bread to milk and empty grocery shelves in the supermarket
Russian people has to queue for everything. Everything has to be ration. You said that success?
There are only 5 countries who called themselves communist but non of them are true communist
In China today there is no ration and go to Chinese supermarket you see profusion of consumer good from food to daily necessities. And Chinese people has one of the highest home owner ship in the world something like 90%. Auto industry is booming even villager now buy cars

Of course if you spend so much money on military you get result But in the end that primacy does not last Now Russia is behind China when it come to electronic, radar,ship, military vehicle ,tank etc

China has it own share of self destructive and self inflicted wound She wasted 3 decades infighting ideology because of Mao obsession with perpetual revolution and scare of China returning to capitalist society
Which I think is futile China is now mix economy with private company take the lead for the better I would say
So when China finally woke up in 80's her military is so outdated. But China has other urgent need beside military spending so she limited the defense spending only to 2% of GDP
But she need to upgrade it ASAP so the best way and cheapest way is to copy ex soviet military equipment. I don't see any problem with that Why reinvent the wheel?

But of course Soviet does not provide China with the latest So over the last 3 decades China initiate their own R&D in defense industry You see the result. Now China strike their own independent development of military hardware and software There still weak spot in her industry like engine But it is understandable due long development time of Gas Turbine
But all the new ships, tank, missile bear little resemblance e to Soviet or Russian model
Stop praising Soviet Computer where is Russia in the ranking of supercomputer or availability of Russian Chip or PC or smart phone She no where to be seen
 
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solarz

Brigadier
My friend solarz the reason that PRC was at so low level those days was not the scientific socialist system ( that never trully built in PRC ) , but the major set backs and mistakes that CPC made ,like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. These "revolutions" had nothing to do with scientific socialism , they moreover contributed to the post Revolution( the real one,1949 ) turbulence and overall stagnation. Anyway Mao Zedong although a great ispirator, was a very questionable political figure and a big egoist. :)

we should move to Chinese economics section i think LOL

I'm not talking about the merits of socialist systems or why wages were low back then. I'm just point out, through real life examples, how low wages does not necessarily mean exploitation. Most of the "sweatshop" jobs that westerners decry offer real, life changing opportunities to the workers.
 
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