Trade War with China

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well, he does think it's China's fault and went as far as to criticize its leaders for being short-sighted but now, he doesn't know what should have been done. I asked him twice now, what specific terms he thought were predatory and how they should have been revised and he answered neither of the 2 times. "Guide and nurture" doesn't mean anything; the key word is "specific." From what I see, China has already guided and nurtured them by providing them with infrastructure plans and the funding to realize them. So now that he liked your post in which you said it's certainly not China's fault, maybe after thinking about it, he changed his mind on that point. He's welcome to do so.

Yes, I see your point of course, we all know what result would have been better but nobody seems to know what course of action would have been better to achieve that result. I want as much as anyone else to see those countries that China made loans to succeed, but when you are dealing with the bottom of the barrel in competence, you need to know that there will be losses and that kind of incompetence is not readily remedied simply by more financial support.

So once again, I'm with you in wanting to see these nations manage their Chinese loans better and walk out into the modern world with this opportunity that China has generously provided, but where I split with Ultra (before) is that I would never point fault on the Chinese government that this did not happen because like everyone else here, I simply don't know what could have been done better. Some people just don't have their act together. You can drive, pivot, maneuver, outrun 5 defenders to gently put the ball in your teammate's hands as he waits 2 feet under the net and sometimes, he'll still miss the shot. I'm not going to blame my hands on that one.

I remember the episode when CIC gave the Venezuelan President a hefty volume (and manual) on how to reform the economy and invest the money.

Sigh.

Plus aren't the Chinese loans in Venezuela all backed up by oil revenues?
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Good allies didn't come out of no where. It takes time, massive investment and nurturing. Both Japan and South Korea were a basket case back in 50s, they were both extremely poor and didn't look like it had any hope to turn it around. If China wants to be a "leader" it needs to do what US did - to lead, to guide, to nurture. If China can't even turn its closest allies near it to be a success story, the outcome is quite simple, these countries will simply be turn into another US pawn to encircle China.

Whilst I agreed broadly with your statement that China needs to up its game and get better at nururing allies.
But the task facing China is much more difficult than the task facing US.
You suggest China should do what the US did to lead, to guide, to nurture allies.
However China is not in the situation as US was. When US was doing their bit in "winning allies". They didn't have the strongest economies, like the US and it's alies amounting to over 40% of the world GDP trying to undermine their efforts in nurturing allies of their own!
Also, just after WWII. US was in an enviable position of having a GDP that's more than 50% of the world. It could use its economic and military muscles at will!
China do not have any of the above advantages.
Furthermore. Even though Japan and Korea is a basket case. It was still better off than half of the world's economies.
The US have spent a lot of dollars in developing these economies.
Simply China don't have the kind of clout that US had.
So whilst I agreed your suggestion is what China should do ( a kind of wish list.) but in reality China need to search for a different strategy in achieving their goals
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well, he does think it's China's fault and went as far as to criticize its leaders for being short-sighted but now, he doesn't know what should have been done. I asked him twice now, what specific terms he thought were predatory and how they should have been revised and he answered neither of the 2 times. "Guide and nurture" doesn't mean anything; the key word is "specific." From what I see, China has already guided and nurtured them by providing them with infrastructure plans and the funding to realize them. So now that he liked your post in which you said it's certainly not China's fault, maybe after thinking about it, he changed his mind on that point. He's welcome to do so.

Yes, I see your point of course, we all know what result would have been better but nobody seems to know what course of action would have been better to achieve that result. I want as much as anyone else to see those countries that China made loans to succeed, but when you are dealing with the bottom of the barrel in competence, you need to know that there will be losses and that kind of incompetence is not readily remedied simply by more financial support.

So once again, I'm with you in wanting to see these nations manage their Chinese loans better and walk out into the modern world with this opportunity that China has generously provided, but where I split with Ultra (before) is that I would never point fault on the Chinese government that this did not happen because like everyone else here, I simply don't know what could have been done better. Some people just don't have their act together. You can drive, pivot, maneuver, outrun 5 defenders to gently put the ball in your teammate's hands as he waits 2 feet under the net and sometimes, he'll still miss the shot. I'm not going to blame my hands on that one.
Agree. But this is a forum for exchanging knowledge and ideals. And to encourage different point of views.
While I agree with much of what you said. I think we need to cut him some slack. He maybe an idealist and is just in a hurry wanting to get things done quickly.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
I remember the episode when CIC gave the Venezuelan President a hefty volume (and manual) on how to reform the economy and invest the money.

Sigh.

Plus aren't the Chinese loans in Venezuela all backed up by oil revenues?
I think you are right. I remember reading somer hing like that. Sadly it looks like libya all over again!
Also I seem to remember hearing some US politician replying to a qustion asked by a journalist as to why US should intervene on a "undemocratic " country when the world is full of "undemocratic " countries.
His reply was without batting an eyelid that Venezuela was in their sphere of influence as it was in the back yard!
Phew! SCS anyone?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Agree. But this is a forum for exchanging knowledge and ideals. And to encourage different point of views.
While I agree with much of what you said. I think we need to cut him some slack. He maybe an idealist and is just in a hurry wanting to get things done quickly.

But he hasn't given any idea or knowledge. I asked him what the specific issue is and how he would improve it an he's silent. I'm all ears. That's where the exchange of ideas should occur.

But maybe he's improving; he used to call the Chinese government short-sighted and blind. I haven't heard insults of the kind in the last 2 posts. Possibly shows on his part a growth in understanding that this is much more complicated then he initially surmised.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Just look at Venezuela. China is about to lose all of its investment in that country..

What makes you think that? Have opposition parties stated that they will not take any responsibility for public debt to China incurred by the previous administration?
Let's look at Sri Lanka for example when the new incoming government of President Sirisena was going to move away from China and reorientate back to the West Japan and India. Is it happening by way of the Hambantota Port lease with China scrapped by public announcement and a stroke of the pen.

If incoming governments can refuse responsibility for the public debts of the previous administration, then no country will be willing to lend.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's obvious that Donald trump is pursuing a losing strategy,

Agree.


but it doesn't mean the US is doomed to poverty.

Depends on what you mean by "poverty".


When the dollar inevitably loses its reserve currency status, there will be a devaluation of the US currency.
Yes, it will drive inflation higher, but it will also spur a boom in exports, because the US does produce a lot of stuff.
That will limit the currency devaluation as there will be a demand for dollars.
That also limits the inflationary effect of the currency devaluation.

Yes, if the US loses its reserve currency status, other countries will be spending stashes of dollars, and there will be a brief increase in demand for US products. The American manufacturing base has been hollowed out, however, so the US will have trouble meeting this demand. Which means inflation will increase for years, as that is what inflation is: an excess of money chasing too few goods.

Therefore, inflation will be high and will remain quite high for years -- for more than long enough to be firmly established -- and that will be doom for at least half the country.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
A reserve currency needs a stable country and a strong military to back it up. Dollar will remain reserve currency as long as those are true. However, dollar as the reserve currency is in turn the reason why the US military is so powerful. The downward feedback loop will probably take time (weaker dollar, weaker military, weaker dollar...).

China is stable and has a strong military. CCP and Chinese values guarantee stability as long as people aren't starving.

Hard to say what will happen.
 
now I read
15:15, 26-Jan-2019
Chinese FM: Huawei 5G ban is 'political manipulation'
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Using national power to groundlessly discredit and suppress specific enterprises is a flagrant act of political manipulation, Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi commented, urging all countries to provide a just, fair and transparent environment for bilateral exchange and cooperation.

Wang is currently on a visit to
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and
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, and the remarks came after reporters asked about his opinion on recent suppression of specific Chinese enterprises by certain countries, including Chinese telecom giant Huawei.

The “Five Eye Alliances” countries - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK, and the U.S. - have banned Huawei from supplying equipment to their 5G network as these countries slandered the company as a threat to their national security without providing solid proof. Canada is still holding its decision.

Last December, Canada
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chief financial officer, Meng Wanzhou, at the
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for violating the U.S. sanctions against Iran.

"All countries have every right and obligation to protect their national security, yet it is unacceptable and immoral to use security as excuses for unwarranted suppression of legitimate foreign enterprises," Wang noted, calling for all countries to remain vigilant and stay away from such bullying tactics.

"The survival and growth of an enterprise are ultimately determined by the market."

Wang said towards the conclusion of his trip to Europe that both France and Italy have clearly expressed their welcome to Chinese investments, and guaranteed not to adopt restriction or discrimination against Chinese enterprises.

"Such declaration is not only timely but also indispensable for the current situation," he added.

Wang called his recent visit to France and Italy an "extremely successful" one, and he said the three countries have conducted in-depth communication on how to address global challenges.

China, France, and Italy have reiterated their determination to strengthen comprehensive strategic partnership, consolidate mutual trust, and uphold multilateralism.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
The consequences of the US $ looses it's reserve currency status will have a big impact on the US economy.
First. Almost every countries in the world hold some sort of reserves in the form of US $.
If and when US $ is seen as not worth holding as a reserve currency. There will be a massive sell off at worse, which would depreciate the $, leading to inflation spiral. Or countries will try to redeem the $ by buying US goods and services.
Now, before anyone think that's good. Have a think about it. It'll mean US production will be geared to satisfying demands from abroad (and since the US is running at full capacity and full employment as boasted by Trump) leaving little to satisfy home demand leading to inflation spiral!
Either way. It's going to be bad for the US economy.
It's a basic fact that the US who had enjoyed the fruit of as the world currency is in fact doing so on IOUs. And all these IOUs will have to come home to roost sometime, and when it does, it's not going to be pretty!
 
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