Trade War with China

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AndrewS

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I guess I agree with you mostly. Thought I just wished that the economy was more free for more diverse investments and industries. Luckily my family is in tech and China is supportive :p. We are Chinese no matter where we go.

One thing you have to note is racism.

For example in Australia, every Asian looking person who has lived there has stories of racism. And they are not shy about sharing those stories.
I think a good comparison is with what blacks face in the Southern USA which used to have them as slaves or segregation.

Remember that in most places in the world, there are so many Chinese that every Asian person is automatically assumed to be Chinese these days.

The situation is better in America, and even better in Europe, but it still does exist.
 

AndrewS

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The post war American trade playbook is based on the fact that the US market is the largest in the world and political control through limiting or threat of limiting access to that market as an instrument has prevailed against "upstarts and challengers" e.g. Japan in the '80s. The US is not use to playing the game on a more even footing i.e. against a competitor whose market is as big if not bigger and whose denial of access to its market has just as great if not greater impact to corporate health. I don't think they've moved with the times, besides what you are describing has already come to pass, the 'Internet with Chinese Characteristics' is already a more vibrant and developed place than their western analogues.

When the "do no evil" company is trying to get back into China with a censored version of their search engine and GM shutters US factories and opens Chinese ones because its market in China is bigger than it's so called domestic market the writing is pretty much on the wall. Its just the bunch of white old men were waiting for the telephone to ring with the news and didn't get the WeChat message!

Yes.

Earlier this year, consumer retail spending for China in 2018 was projected to grow to $5.8 Trillion.
That slightly larger than the expected US amount. And note Chinese retail spending is still growing a lot faster.

So the US will struggle to use the denial of the US economy as a sufficient threat.

---

Yes, I agree that the 'Internet with Chinese Characteristics' is already a more vibrant and developed place than their western analogues.
But Chinese internet companies are still predominantly China only, because Western companies developed first and expanded globally first.

What I'm referring to is the next generation of technology companies based on using 5G connectivity, which doesn't currently exist.

It is in this realm that Chinese tech companies could grow big first AND expand globally first as well. And that global expansion could include the domestic US market.

For example, imagine Didi gets to self-driving cars first and irons out all the bugs, because China deploys better 5G technology from Huawei faster.
If Didi/Lyft have a 6month advantage in the USA in being able to offer taxi fares at HALF the price of Uber, that potentially could mean the end of Uber.

That's why I'm suggesting that if the USA restricts Huawei from installing 5G, then all its tech companies will be at a disadvantage compared to Chinese companies in downstream industries.

And those downstream industries globally are way more valuable than Huawei providing the initial infrastructure, which is going to be commoditised anyway.
 
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localizer

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You guys ever heard of Lighthizer’s paper plane negotiation?

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“The trade talks on steel imports were dragging on, and Robert Lighthizer didn’t care for the Japanese offer. So he folded it into a paper airplane and launched it across his desk at Japan’s lead negotiator… The 1985 deal capped weeks of negotiations in which Lighthizer, then the deputy U.S. Trade Representative, shocked his Japanese counterparts with rough-hewn jokes and wore them out with his disdain for their proposals, former colleagues recalled. During one Japanese presentation, he devoted his attention to playfully disassembling his microphone.”
 

AndrewS

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Only in certain parts of America. Most of the conservative red states usually have more racism than other parts like in the east and west coast.

I was making the point that when you compare racism in Australia versus America, any part of America is better than in Australia.

As I said before, being Asian in Australia is like being Black in one of the Conservative Redneck Southern States.
 
Here's a thought.

a) the US cuts off Huawei
b) Huawei is better / faster at producing 5G products when compared to the foreign competition (Nokia, Ericsson, etc)
c) Chinese carriers can deploy 5G products faster than the USA

That means China will likely be first in deploying and using cheap 5G networks, compared with the USA

So Chinese companies will be first to build new commercial business models, and will be doing this in the world's largest telecoms, automobile and retail market.
Think self-driving cars, VR, AR, telemedicine, Internet of things, retail etc

Then these Chinese companies will look to expand in the rest of the world. But their competitors in US will be less developed and smaller than the Chinese companies.

So whilst Huawei loses out on the initial equipment supply, it means other Chinese companies will have a competitive advantage in the industries actually using 5G.

And the value of these downstream industries is way greater than the value of Huawei supplying the 5G infrastructure.

---

So in summary, the US Huawei 5G network bans means:

a) a more secure network for them
b) it will cost more
c) it will be slower to build
d) Chinese companies have a competitive advantage in technology, scale and business models using 5G. That means they can expand to the rest of the world first (including the US)

So from the Chinese perspective, should China really complain about the USA shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

The same logic applies to any rich hi-tech country than wants to ban Huawei. Think Japan, Korea, Australia. But not New Zealand which doesn't have a tech industry

I would be cautious though. Back in the late1990's and early 2000. Japan's NTT imode Cell phone technology and services was superior to US and western counterpart and it offers many of the services(browsing, email, instant messenging, NFC wallet, etc) found on today's 4G phones. It failed for many reason but primarily because it was prevented from establishing a presence in most english speaking market.
 

AndrewS

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I would be cautious though. Back in the late1990's and early 2000. Japan's NTT imode Cell phone technology and services was superior to US and western counterpart and it offers many of the services(browsing, email, instant messenging, NFC wallet, etc) found on today's 4G phones. It failed for many reason but primarily because it was prevented from establishing a presence in most english speaking market.

Japan really suffers from Galapagos syndrome where everything is uniquely tailored to Japan, which is frankly different and quirky.
Plus at its peak, Japan had a population and GDP which was only half the size of the USA.

In comparison, China is bigger than the USA in most respects, and still growing.
And China has a diaspora of 80million people all over the world, which helps market entry because there is a Chinese-speaking network already in place. Japan simply didn't have this.
 

localizer

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China trade hawk Navarro is attending the Trump-Xi dinner, source says

  • White House trade policy advisor and well-known China hawk Peter Navarro will be attending a crucial meeting between President Donald Trump and Chinese president Xi Jinping this week, a White House official confirmed to CNBC.
  • The South China Morning Post first reported Navarro's attendance, which sent the Dow briefly to its low of the day.
  • Navarro is known for his aggressive stance toward changes in the U.S. trade relationship with China.

Heh I guess time to move my assets away from the stock market.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You guys ever heard of Lighthizer’s paper plane negotiation?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


“The trade talks on steel imports were dragging on, and Robert Lighthizer didn’t care for the Japanese offer. So he folded it into a paper airplane and launched it across his desk at Japan’s lead negotiator… The 1985 deal capped weeks of negotiations in which Lighthizer, then the deputy U.S. Trade Representative, shocked his Japanese counterparts with rough-hewn jokes and wore them out with his disdain for their proposals, former colleagues recalled. During one Japanese presentation, he devoted his attention to playfully disassembling his microphone.”
If he pulled that in China, I'd say everyone should pick up their water glasses and throw them back at him LOL
 

Tam

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I would be cautious though. Back in the late1990's and early 2000. Japan's NTT imode Cell phone technology and services was superior to US and western counterpart and it offers many of the services(browsing, email, instant messenging, NFC wallet, etc) found on today's 4G phones. It failed for many reason but primarily because it was prevented from establishing a presence in most english speaking market.

Not because of entry but because some of their technologies are incompatible with the rest of the world. For example the US relying a lot on CDMA when essentially the Japanese are using GSM --- for that matter, US' CDMA technology wasn't adopted to the rest of the world either. Another is that the Japanese networks and phones don't use SMS at all. All messaging are done via email. SMS never existed in a Japanese keitei or network, and yet SMS is the European Nokia developed standard that quickly spread throughout the globe.

For all its worth, NTT's techs and a whole trove of Japanese telecom patents are now required IP licensing, and made up a crucial part of 3G and 4G technologies.
 
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