Trade War with China

Quickie said:

Alibaba's Jack Ma could be right. This trade war thing could drag on for 20 years.

U.S. Urges Allies to Avoid Using Huawei Equipment, WSJ Says
The U.S. government is contacting key allies to get them to persuade telecommunications companies in their countries to avoid using equipment from China’s

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, the Wall Street Journal

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.



Officials from the U.S. have reached out to counterparts and executives in countries including Germany, Italy and Japan about perceived cybersecurity risks, the Journal said, citing unidentified people familiar with the matter. The U.S. may boost aid for telecommunications development in countries that shun Huawei equipment, some of the people said.


Huawei has long been labeled a security risk by U.S. lawmakers because of alleged links to the Chinese government, in part because it was founded by former military engineer Ren Zhengfei. While the Shenzhen-based company has denied any inappropriate connections, it’s been

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from supplying fifth-generation wireless equipment,

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in the U.K. and found itself

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from the U.S. market.


Scrutiny of Huawei has increased since Donald Trump became U.S. President as trade tensions between Washington and Beijing escalate. The closely held company is now the world’s second-largest maker of smartphones and is one of the biggest producers of equipment for running phone networks.

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Huawei said customers around the world choose its products because they trust the company.

“Huawei is surprised by the behaviors of the US government detailed in the article,” the company said in an email. “If a government’s behavior extends beyond its jurisdiction, such activity should not be encouraged.”

The spread on Huawei’s 3.25 percent dollar bonds due in 2022 widened, with investors demanding the biggest yield premium since early July, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Analysts

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as adding to weak sentiment in Chinese and Hong Kong equity markets, which led regional losses.

American officials are concerned about the use of the Chinese equipment in countries that host U.S. military bases such as Germany, Japan and Italy, the Journal reported. There is concern about China’s ability to force companies to comply with government requests, it said.

A number of major telecommunications companies directed more than 5 percent of their capital expenditure to Huawei, according to Bloomberg

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. That includes Telecom Italia SpA and Japan’s NTT Docomo Inc. and KDDI Corp., the data shows.

Huawei has been pouring billions into developing 5G technology and its potential to become the global leader in the space is said to be a reason why Trump

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the biggest ever chip deal earlier this year.

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US Government is waging war against a private Chinese corporation and wants to select winner and loser in the market. Accusation is being made without proof, scientific or otherwise. Guess who really is abusing the global free trade system.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Well look like Huawei is winning the 5th G sweepstakes now that what make RH and cohort nervous Because who ever lead set a standard via Taishang. It will transform life as we know it more than 4G which basically still communication cum entertaining and some fintech But 5G will lead us into autonomous driving, etc

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Huawei ships 10,000 5G base stations globally

By Wang Yi Source:Global Times Published: 2018/11/21

China expected to lead development of next-generation services: analysts

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Interesting, by the the 5G standard is still under development.

As it looks like the new part of ti is the 28 GHz band, so even the human body can shadow the phone.

Quickie said:

Alibaba's Jack Ma could be right. This trade war thing could drag on for 20 years.
...

Huawei has long been labeled a security risk by U.S. lawmakers because of alleged links to the Chinese government, in part because it was founded by former military engineer Ren Zhengfei. While the Shenzhen-based company has denied any inappropriate connections, it’s been

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from supplying fifth-generation wireless equipment,

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in the U.K. and found itself

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from the U.S. market.
...

Click to expand...

Rather unsurprisingly both the UK and Australia are part of Five Eyes.


These countries spy over all international communications going over their networks. Cisco has been found in the past to have been pushed by the NSA to introduce backdoors into their equipment. The US government accuse Huawei of having security holes in their equipment (which hardware or software product does not have those?) and of the founder having close ties to the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA. But given the prior context of the country who did you expect would found a telecommunications company when everyone with the relevant expertise were in those fields? I mean Oracle was founded by Larry Ellison and the database's development was originally funded as part of a US military contract. It eventually went private. The founder of GoDaddy, one of the main DNS registrars, is a former US military officer. These things are tolerated in the USA. For some reason they are not tolerated with regards to China. If they are concerned with software or hardware security of the products just demand an independent audit.

I think this campaign is due to two things, one is market control, by excluding their major competitor, and the other is the fear that the Chinese government will do the exact same things they themselves are already doing with Five Eyes i.e. projection.

This should be no surprise. Jack Ma says 20 years? How about forever? Trump and his supporters have been saying China started the trade war years ago? They've been waging a trade war for hundreds of years. This is just the latest chapter of trying to force everyone to live by their system so that they're the primary benefactor and maintain control. They say Libya has the best crude oil in the world. No one could do business with Libya under international embargo and sanctions. It was the US and Great Britain that decided alone it was alright to do business with Libya thus got the first oil deals before anyone else. Do you think that's fair to the world that only the few get to decide when it's all right or not to do business with another country? This is what they want China to follow. You better believe they want to carve up China like they did after the Opium Wars but this time they'll include Japan and others just to make it not look like it's not only the Western world like there's nothing wrong with it. They don't like reading about how Google lost against China or how United Airlines feared Chinese backlash because Chinese social media mistook a badly treated Vietnamese passenger as Chinese. And look at the humiliation of Dolce and Gabanna has to go through today having to apologize to a bunch of lowly Chinese because that's how one of its racist co-founders really feels. Obama's TPP would eliminate any need for an apology because it would've fine countries for any perceived losses to corporations due to "politics".

The West will never give China a break because they're not for an equal world. All you have to do is look at how they treated Japan during the Cold War. Japan was then and still is wholly dependent on the US. Yet they were so paranoid over Japan's economic success that they saw it as a greater threat than the Soviet Union. So complete surrender doesn't even make them feel secure. Japan is everything they want that China isn't. Peace to them is you accepting your place below them. That translates to never giving you a break. That's means you will always have prove your loyalty to them by going out your way in doing an act of obedience. Do they do that in return? No, because that would negate the point of expecting that of others in the first place. They accuse China of undermining the world order. Yeah, their world order like how the only baseball teams that can play the World Series are from the US and Canada. In a truly equal and level playing field, they wouldn't have a chance. They would claim that's not true but then why are they so afraid of other countries not doing it their way? If it's so superior to how anyone else does it, they shouldn't have to worry about it usurping their world order. All Trump has done for allies of the US is to wake them up from their dream world they've been living in. Because they have been doing what the US wants, they're in a weaker position than China.

gelgoog said:

I think this campaign is due to two things, one is market control, by excluding their major competitor, and the other is the fear that the Chinese government will do the exact same things they themselves are already doing with Five Eyes i.e. projection.

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Control of he sea lines and the communication is key to control world economy.
Every country in the agreement has sea access.

All five country will be in infavour condition as soon as China / India or anyone else start to posses a blue water navy, from that point of time the trade to /from this countries become as vulnerable as say the Chinese/ Italian this days..

You guys are losing the plot. NOPE NOPE NOPE.

This thread is about trade war. ECONOMY.


GM is reinventing itself. It's cutting 15% of its salaried workers and shutting 5 plants in North America

"The transition will come at the expense of about 8,000 salaried workers, and 6,000 hourly workers will either lose their jobs or be reassigned to other plants. The company last month offered for 18,000 salaried workers."





At the same time:


Trump dims hopes of China trade deal with fresh tariff threat on Apple phones



I am hoping Chinese leadership understand Trump by now. He is a perpetual LIAR.
To understand him, one only needs to do opposite of what he says. He likes to cover his vulnerability with LIES.

It really shows - If Chinese leadership is any smarter, just drag it on for another year. Trump is intensify his attack with more tariffs on China, hoping to bluff the chinese leadership into submission. Chinese leadership needs to call his bluff and most definitely should consider America a lost cause under Trump. View the American market as unsalvagable under Trump. There is no need to deal with him.

American economy will collapse soon if Trump continues this trajectory - Trump can continue to ignore all the economists but reality is just like gravity - he can ignore but he will feel the full impact when he (and the rest of america) crash.

Sooner or later Trump will understand China plays hard ball, and there is nothing he can do on the economic front to slow the collapse and he will blame EVERYONE but himself.
But that's no time to be partying because Trump will start WARS to divert attention on the economic front (always good to start a war when things aren't doing so good domestically - works great for Bush!) and he would rather burn America to the ground and take the rest of the world with him rather than be held accountable for his monumental mistakes.

So China need to get ready for a bloody war next year.

gelgoog said:

Rather unsurprisingly both the UK and Australia are part of Five Eyes.

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These countries spy over all international communications going over their networks. Cisco has been found in the past to have been pushed by the NSA to introduce backdoors into their equipment. The US government accuse Huawei of having security holes in their equipment (which hardware or software product does not have those?) and of the founder having close ties to the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA. But given the prior context of the country who did you expect would found a telecommunications company when everyone with the relevant expertise were in those fields? I mean Oracle was founded by Larry Ellison and the database's development was originally funded as part of a US military contract. It eventually went private. The founder of GoDaddy, one of the main DNS registrars, is a former US military officer. These things are tolerated in the USA. For some reason they are not tolerated with regards to China. If they are concerned with software or hardware security of the products just demand an independent audit.

I think this campaign is due to two things, one is market control, by excluding their major competitor, and the other is the fear that the Chinese government will do the exact same things they themselves are already doing with Five Eyes i.e. projection.

Click to expand...

New Zealand another one of the 5 Anglo Saxon countries that make up the 5 eyes has announced today that Huawei would be ban from providing any equipment for the up coming 5G network roll out. The head of New Zealand’s head of intelligence claim serious security issues had been found with the gear without providing any proof.

KIENCHIN said:

New Zealand another one of the 5 Anglo Saxon countries that make up the 5 eyes has announced today that Huawei would be ban from providing any equipment for the up coming 5G network roll out. The head of New Zealand’s head of intelligence claim serious security issues had been found with the gear without providing any proof.

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I think if there were genuine security flaws, it would be surprising and unusual for security chiefs to be telling the world about them, since such flaws are highly prized by intelligence agencies, who design attack tools around them.

There have been numerous such examples where western state intelligence companies have found zero day bugs and exploits in hardware and software made by western companies that they then secretly exploited for years.

One of the main charges against Snowdon was that he exposed some of those exploits, thereafter the software makers patched them, and removed western intelligence’s ability to continue expiloting them. Incidentally, that was also classed as harming western national security interests.

It is just basic common sense that western intelligence and other government agencies would not continue to use unpatched software ( hardware can be easily modded after sales, so excluding that) when they know there are serious security loopholes in them.

That leaves three possibilities:

1) the western companies that made said software were not as innocent or oblivious as they publically claim, and developed patches to protect western government computers while deliberately suppressing the patch for the rest of the world to allow the continued abuse of said bugs.

2) Said bugs were not left in by mistake/omission to start with, and were purposefully inserted at the request of western intelligence agencies, with non-compromised versions of the software used by them.

3) western intelligence agencies self patched their software without informing the original maker.

For the first 2 cases, you will need active co-operation from the original marker, which western intelligence companies could not hope to get from Chinese companies, especially if they want to target China.

For scenario 3, it would also be very hard to do without active support from the original marker.

So that makes one suspicious that 5 eyes countries’ chief concern might not be the existence of flaws, but rather their inability to enlist Chinese companies to co-operate the same way as western companies with their intelligence gathering efforts.

BT=British Telecom

BT's McRae: Huawei Is 'the Only True 5G Supplier Right Now'

LONDON -- Global Mobile Broadband Forum -- Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and ZTE got a kick in the pants Wednesday morning from BT's Chief Architect Neil McRae when he proclaimed "there is only one true 5G supplier right now and that is Huawei -- the others need to catch up."

Read more

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Here's a thought.

a) the US cuts off Huawei
b) Huawei is better / faster at producing 5G products when compared to the foreign competition (Nokia, Ericsson, etc)
c) Chinese carriers can deploy 5G products faster than the USA

That means China will likely be first in deploying and using cheap 5G networks, compared with the USA

So Chinese companies will be first to build new commercial business models, and will be doing this in the world's largest telecoms, automobile and retail market.
Think self-driving cars, VR, AR, telemedicine, Internet of things, retail etc

Then these Chinese companies will look to expand in the rest of the world. But their competitors in US will be less developed and smaller than the Chinese companies.

So whilst Huawei loses out on the initial equipment supply, it means other Chinese companies will have a competitive advantage in the industries actually using 5G.

And the value of these downstream industries is way greater than the value of Huawei supplying the 5G infrastructure.

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So in summary, the US Huawei 5G network bans means:

a) a more secure network for them
b) it will cost more
c) it will be slower to build
d) Chinese companies have a competitive advantage in technology, scale and business models using 5G. That means they can expand to the rest of the world first (including the US)

So from the Chinese perspective, should China really complain about the USA shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

The same logic applies to any rich hi-tech country than wants to ban Huawei. Think Japan, Korea, Australia. But not New Zealand which doesn't have a tech industry