The Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012


Status
Not open for further replies.

i.e.

Senior Member
war is about making less mistakes then ur enemy, and Japanese very rarely make mistakes
Well
they made two big ones in WW2
invading china and Attacking America
by invading china they invaded a country they can never conquer and absorb.
by attacking america they took on the biggest industrialized nation on earth in a industrialized war.
 

solarz

Brigadier
As I wrote in another thread this has all the earmarks of a Falkland 2012 - 2013 type war. A scenario is already underway. Here are some screen shots
It's foolish to compare the Falklands with Diaoyu Islands. The Falklands are inhabited. You can station a garrison there to ensure territorial control. The reason the Falklands War started was because Argentine started a shooting war with the British garrison on Falklands.

In the Diaoyu conflict, who is going to fire the first shot? And more importantly, for what reason?
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Yup, seems like many somehow think you can only fight navy with navy.
Japan's navy does look stronger than PLAN but PLA will mostly use air power in a war in the East China Sea.
I expect J10 & JH7 to shine in such a war.
The PLAN needs to fight with an integrated force. That means robust maritime patrol aircraft and AWACS aircraft. Also the PLAN has under developed tanker support. On the other hand the JSAF has KC-767's and E-767 aircraft and have been training with them for sometime. Lacking this infrastructure would be a problem for China

And the Chinese are still a largely coastal navy and lack experience at sea. These are problems for the PLAN
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
It's foolish to compare the Falklands with Diaoyu Islands. The Falklands are inhabited. You can station a garrison there to ensure territorial control. The reason the Falklands War started was because Argentine started a shooting war with the British garrison on Falklands.

In the Diaoyu conflict, who is going to fire the first shot? And more importantly, for what reason?
Here are my reasons for the comparison. Feel free to rebut or comment as necessary:

1- The remoteness of the potential battlefield in a Japan - China clash in many ways resembles the remoteness of the South Atlantic and the situation both Britain and Argentina faced in applying forces to the Falklands

2-A clash in the air between the JSDF and the PLAN would be between beyond visual range aircraft and might not involve much close in dog fighting

3-The Japanese might establish an exclusion zone around the islands warning the Chinese not to violate Japanese waters and airspace You will recall the British did the same thing around the Falklands and used the HMS Conqueror to sink the light cruiser Belgrano as it attempted to violate the EZ.

4-The JMSDF is a professional organization and their submarine forces are considered one of the best in the world. Sinking a PLAN ship would be a very provocative act but would not be outside of the ideas of war at sea in the event of a crisis

5-It is unlikely that the crisis would escalate into a nuclear confrontation because the PLAN would be seen as weak if they had to go nuclear in response to an attack on one of their ships. Remember the British lost many ships and still kept the Falkland war contained as a conventional war. The Chinese would be under pressure to do the same

6-Like the Falklands you have one side with nuclear weapons and one without. That would be a nuclear armed Britain and a non-nuclear Argentina

7-Like the Falklands the United States would be supplying one side, Japan. In the Falklands war the U.S. provided the British with military equipment ranging from submarine detectors to the latest missiles. You could expect the same behind the scenes help for Japan.

8-Like Argentina the Chinese have a nascent maritime ocean surveillance system and and would be hard pressed to locate and hold track on the JMSDF

9-Like Argentina the PLAN has a poorly developed ASW force and would be at a disadvantage combating Japanese submarines

10-Japanese E-767 AWACS and KC-767 tanker aircraft would put the PLAN forces at a disadvantage.
 

Bose

New Member
would China go to war with Japan? if it did, who would win?

first about the chance for a conflict: in my opion, if japan carries on with its purchase plan about the Diaoyu island, then the chance for a fight is quite high.

secondly, who will prevail in the fight, my answer is China. Japan and China are pretty much on par on navy and airforce, but China has a large arsenal of ballistic and cruise missles which will determine the outcome.

finally, will america get involved in the conflict? my answer is no. bounded or unbounded by the treaty, with or without the treaty, america is not going to fight. america didn't fight for taiwan in 1958, it didn't fight for south vietnam in 1974.
First of all China will not be the initiator of such a war, though she will/might retaliate for the shots fired from the Japanese side.

I believe that even if the Japanese provoke more, the main thing China is going to do is to initiate a trade/economic war. She will tighten the exports and sanction imports from Japan, including putting pressure on EU to join (who anyway is alive on Chinese ventilator) the sanction. This is surely going to hurt the Japanese economy.

As I understand, China seems to have set itself some plans & target for PLAN to become a major naval power and they will tread the "peaceful" path in the face of provocations. China wont like to weaken itself or break the flow that is now undergoing for its navy.

One thing we will see as a result of this Japanese provocation is the speed up of Type-056 and the likely use or them to 'violate' the Japanese territorial waters off the islands and also aid future Chinese travelers to the island.
 

Bose

New Member
Well
they made two big ones in WW2
invading china and Attacking America
by invading china they invaded a country they can never conquer and absorb.
by attacking america they took on the biggest industrialized nation on earth in a industrialized war.
As far as I'm concerned their biggest mistake was to expand southwards by neglecting the West!

If the Japanese had expanded westwards wiping out the British along the Asian mainland, things would have been completely different. They failed to have a vision of freeing India from the British rule and make the crown jewel of the British empire their ally and finally making it to the Gulf. I can't imagine how the Japanese failed to notice the Indian sub-continent on the map and its significance to the SLOC from east to west. They neglected the area and failed to dislodge the British from the area and secure their oil supplies. By the end of war, before the nuclear massacre was initiated, over 80% of the oil supply to Japan was destroyed/disrupted by the allies.

Now, the same is going to be employed by India and if ever a war breaks up between India and China, the oil supplies from the Gulf to China will be the first one to get disrupted, even though the supplies from Russian far east & Central Asia is likely to remain open.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Where an integrated force is expected, China shall fight with a distributed force. Do the unexpected. This is the art of war.
That is nice talk here on this forum but with a lack of experience in war fighting at sea the PLAN is at a severe disadvantage. And please define this "distributed force" you are speaking about.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Here are my reasons for the comparison. Feel free to rebut or comment as necessary:

1- The remoteness of the potential battlefield in a Japan - China clash in many ways resembles the remoteness of the South Atlantic and the situation both Britain and Argentina faced in applying forces to the Falklands

2-A clash in the air between the JSDF and the PLAN would be between beyond visual range aircraft and might not involve much close in dog fighting

3-The Japanese might establish an exclusion zone around the islands warning the Chinese not to violate Japanese waters and airspace You will recall the British did the same thing around the Falklands and used the HMS Conqueror to sink the light cruiser Belgrano as it attempted to violate the EZ.

4-The JMSDF is a professional organization and their submarine forces are considered one of the best in the world. Sinking a PLAN ship would be a very provocative act but would not be outside of the ideas of war at sea in the event of a crisis

5-It is unlikely that the crisis would escalate into a nuclear confrontation because the PLAN would be seen as weak if they had to go nuclear in response to an attack on one of their ships. Remember the British lost many ships and still kept the Falkland war contained as a conventional war. The Chinese would be under pressure to do the same

6-Like the Falklands you have one side with nuclear weapons and one without. That would be a nuclear armed Britain and a non-nuclear Argentina

7-Like the Falklands the United States would be supplying one side, Japan. In the Falklands war the U.S. provided the British with military equipment ranging from submarine detectors to the latest missiles. You could expect the same behind the scenes help for Japan.

8-Like Argentina the Chinese have a nascent maritime ocean surveillance system and and would be hard pressed to locate and hold track on the JMSDF

9-Like Argentina the PLAN has a poorly developed ASW force and would be at a disadvantage combating Japanese submarines

10-Japanese E-767 AWACS and KC-767 tanker aircraft would put the PLAN forces at a disadvantage.
None of the points you listed gives a reason for why there would be a battle. This is all just in your imagination.
 

FriedRiceNSpice

Senior Member
You forget China can replace lost men faster than any nation on earth. That fact alone countered the american nukes in the korea war. Now China has nukes and men. What is her enemies to do, huh ? Much easier just to make peace.
It takes 6 weeks to get infantrymen out to the front and kicking ass. You cant train naval crewmen and officers in such a short time. The officers will be especially hard to replace. It must already be difficult for them to expand their naval officer cadre at a pace to match with the modernization effort, even in peace time.

Where an integrated force is expected, China shall fight with a distributed force. Do the unexpected. This is the art of war.
What the hell does this even mean? Yes, lets not integrate the branches and let them each do their own thing...

and this article make mention of one of them, which is establishing over lapping fields of firepower
Too bad the PLA have not yet developed the ability to establish over lapping fields of firepower :( Wow, those Japanese truly must be tactical geniuses...

Japanese commanders are gifted in setting up ideal defensive positions with has overlapping layered fire, one reason why American death toll was so high in the Pacific Campaign in WWII, and secondly in Guadalcanal, Philippines Sea and so many other battles Japanese naval forces always used a diversion force to lead the Americans away and then outflank to perform a pincer movement, this is deception
Yep they did so well there... in fact it only cost them 5 soldiers for each American life, such a good KDR! I wish I could get a 0.20 KDR on CoD. And in the air, it only cost them 10 Zeros for each American fighter downed, the only way America won was by overwhelming them with sheer numbers.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top