The Kashmir conflict 2025.

Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Ringsword said:
I was actually quite concerned that the Spectra EWsuite which was touted as making the Rafale an equal to full 5th gen jets like F22/F35 and of course the Chinese J20.It's sales pitch to the Indians was akin to buying a Romulan Cloaking Device which will make the IAF all but invincible and shoot down PAF/PLAAF jets like swatting flies-apparently the damn thing didn't even get activated and IAF"Godzilla -3"only saw his wingman explode into a fireball before he knew it,Wow,well done China(and PAF)-imagine a flight of same number of full-house J20's with PLAAF PL15's/PL12's in that aerial battle-the slaughter would be immense.Hopefully now Modi would be more reasonable and less bellicose.
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It's first time such a comprehensive EW system got installed on a fighter (and there are still only a few), and got fused into fighter combat systems so deeply on top of that.

1990s were sort of revolution in this sense, because effective and compact DRFM jammers (especially israeli ones) proliferated a lot; before that, such jammers were exclusive feature of some strategic bombers(where it was "fuzed" through dedicated operator, something no fighter can afford).
Rafale joined led the trend - just check how rich its suit of emitting antennas spread across the airframe. It byitself is an elaborate flying self-protection pod, with rich apperture space in best suitable locations, etc.
Even now, only one fighter suit is clearly ahead in complexity, volume and power (Himalayas), and there is a comparable (more advanced) competitor emerging (Arexis).
Other planes are more reserved - usually relying on jamming pods whenever necessary.

Opposite side - it's indeed a suit developed together with Rafale. While power of jamming is important - ultimately it doesn't neutralize targets with its weight and installed power - detection and jamming has to be on point.
This is one of the darkest areas in military domain, but overall - since 1990s, frequency hopping, recognition(ai!) and related techniques made incredible jump ahead, and all this happened afterwar SPECTRA appeared.

It's still a very potent system. But now the question of course arises, how well it kept up with threats and even types of threats which appeared after its appearence, especially systems french didn't consider as priority ones (Chinese MIC threat).
They should ve looked at least to some degree there - Rafale was designed more or less in parallel with F-22, and LPI isn't exactly magic (and deciphering LPI is not magic either - it's one of the reasons why such elaborate receivers are needed in the first place). But this is a digital competition, where you can fail, and where latecomer always has huge advantage.
Furthermore, some threats, like, Ku band LPI seekers, are something absolutely out of 1990s threat realm - this is a very 2010/2020s threat.
 
LCR34

LCR34

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ringsword said:
"towable decoy"? on an aircraft-I thought such things were only used in submarines??And such a setup in use by the IAF-the results would be comical and tragic in the extreme!!
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There IS such thing as towed decoy. Lookup AN/ALE-55. I was supposed to be released and towed behind an aircraft (normally from drag chute area) as last resort counter measure. The decoy either release jamming signal or as a reflector to trick enemy radar. One of the idea was to fool FC radar or Missile radar algorithm processing into combining two dots and thus the missile will pass through between decoy and the real plane itself.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
LCR34 said:
There IS such thing as towed decoy. Lookup AN/ALE-55. I was supposed to be released and towed behind an aircraft (normally from drag chute area) as last resort counter measure. The decoy either release jamming signal or as a reflector to trick enemy radar. One of the idea was to fool FC radar or Missile radar algorithm processing into combining two dots and thus the missile will pass through between decoy and the real plane itself.
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I thought it is optimized against SAMs?
 
A

AndrewJ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Aegrotare said:
Thats really the big question, where were the Indian BVR missles? The IAF really did a comical bad job at planing and executing their attack, and not for the first time. The second big question is, why do the Indians always choose the IAF for such mission, they have prooven again and again that they are incompetent. Why not just attack from the start with balistic missles?
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(Edited) OK. Now confirmed Indian has Meteor AAM. But why not use them?:eek:
 
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Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
N00B said:
The Rafale was claimed to be downed near Bhatinda, 70 kms from the border as crow flies. So probably was returning to the base at that point.
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Yes, likely. It's where it has fallen.
We don't know how it corellates with where it was hit.
Anything could happen - maybe pilot thought threat is gone, and got chased down by missile unaware. Maybe he was hit long ago, and this was the point damaged plane failed(but it happened catastrophically, otherwise we'll get it in one piece more or less).
 
LCR34

LCR34

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
It's first time such a comprehensive EW system got installed on a fighter (and there are still only a few), and got fused into fighter combat systems so deeply on top of that.

1990s were sort of revolution in this sense, because effective and compact DRFM jammers (especially israeli ones) proliferated a lot; before that, such jammers were exclusive feature of some strategic bombers(where it was "fuzed" through dedicated operator, something no fighter can afford).
Rafale joined led the trend - just check how rich its suit of emitting antennas spread across the airframe. It byitself is an elaborate flying self-protection pod, with rich apperture space in best suitable locations, etc.
Even now, only one fighter suit is clearly ahead in complexity, volume and power (Himalayas), and there is a comparable (more advanced) competitor emerging (Arexis).
Other planes are more reserved - usually relying on jamming pods whenever necessary.

Opposite side - it's indeed a suit developed together with Rafale. While power of jamming is important - ultimately it doesn't neutralize targets with its weight and installed power - detection and jamming has to be on point.
This is one of the darkest areas in military domain, but overall - since 1990s, frequency hopping, recognition(ai!) and related techniques made incredible jump ahead, and all this happened afterwar SPECTRA appeared.

It's still a very potent system. But now the question of course arises, how well it kept up with threats and even types of threats which appeared after its appearence, especially systems french didn't consider as priority ones (Chinese MIC threat).
They should ve looked at least to some degree there - Rafale was designed more or less in parallel with F-22, and LPI isn't exactly magic (and deciphering LPI is not magic either - it's one of the reasons why such elaborate receivers are needed in the first place). But this is a digital competition, where you can fail, and where latecomer always has huge advantage.
Furthermore, some threats, like, Ku band LPI seekers, are something absolutely out of 1990s threat realm - this is a very 2010/2020s threat.
Click to expand...
This is based on opinion that Chinese does not have analogues to SPECTRA. Given Chinese leaps and bounds in semiconductor field, it no surprise if J10C itself has build in EW suite. After all CAC did have delegations touring Dassault when Rafale was still a prototype. While Russians still relies on wingtip jamming pods, Sino flankers have incorporated its EW suite into the plane itself. Also a missile carried by J-20 no less, i believe Chinese designers have factored in the environment and adversary it will came up against. It is to be shot at F22, F35 etc and neutralize them despite their VLO characteristic and also to score a hit on EA-18G despite heavy jamming.
 
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