The Civil War in Libya

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Cleaning a weapon is not using one. My Grandfather taught me too clean his revolver when I was seven, that does not mean I ever fired it or shot someone. It's comon to teach boys that young too hunt, and handle firearms in the US. For some cultures it's part of being a man, even if the weapon is a "Military rife", a term with little meaning outside the first world. A AK or FAL will defend a home or take small game as easly as make war. Unless UNICEF can prove they are fighting they stay out.
 
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Baibar of Jalat

Junior Member
Cleaning a weapon is not using one. My Grandfather taught me too clean his revolver when I was seven, that does not mean I ever fired it or shot someone. It's comon to teach boys that young too hunt, and handle firearms in the US. For some cultures it's part of being a man, even if the weapon is a "Military rife", a term with little meaning outside the first world. A AK or FAL will defend a home or take small game as easly as make war. Unless UNICEF can prove they are fighting they stay out.

Big difference between a warzone and peacetime environment.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I just want too note, I am trying too play Devils Advocate here.

True this is a civil war but still it stands, Even in War hunting for food and defending one's home is a need. Unless there is concrete Evidence In the form of photos from the fronts, Prisoners... Whatever it may be that Children or on the front lines fighting, These Photos only show Handling of weapons most Unloaded not use there in of these weapons.

As for Where Unicef is?
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For more on Child Soldiers
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For Ever Accusation made Against the Rebels, the same is made against the government in this case.
Remember this?
The Guardian said:
UN says reports of child soldiers being recruited in Libya

Published on March 11, 2011

GENEVA - U.N. officials say they are getting reports that child soldiers are being recruited to fight for Moammar Gadhafi loyalists in Libya — which would be a war crime.

UNICEF spokeswoman Marixie Mercado told The Associated Press on Friday there is "a serious concern" that child soldiers are among the mercenaries that Gadhafi is hiring to attack rebel forces.

The spokeswoman for the U.N. children's agency said the mercenaries come from Chad, Niger, Central African Republic and Sudan's Darfur region, which are all places "with known child soldiers."

The U.N. special envoy for children in armed conflicts, Radhika Coomaraswamy, also says human rights groups and local civilians are providing unconfirmed reports that children are being killed and injured by taking up arms in Libya.

Oh and some news.

The UN website. said:
Libya: Visiting Tripoli, UN envoy stresses need to heed calls for democracy

10 July 2011 –
The Secretary-General's special envoy for Libya, Abdul Elah al-Khatib, has had talks in the country's capital, Tripoli, with both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister, stressing the need for a political solution to the ongoing conflict to spare the people of further suffering.

Mr. Khatib, who visited Tripoli yesterday, emphasized that a settlement must address the legitimate demands and aspirations of the people of Libya for a democratic future.

“The Special Envoy raised ideas with respect to the management of a transition in Libya. [He] also listened to the views of the Government of Libya regarding the impact of sanctions and NATO operations,” said a statement released by Mr. Khatib's office.

He will travel to New York over the weekend to brief the Secretary-General and the United Nations Security Council on Monday on his efforts to find a solution to the Libya crisis.

Libya has been engulfed by fighting since a pro-democracy movement opposed to the regime of Muammar al-Qadhafi emerged in February following similar protests in Tunisia, Egypt and other countries across North Africa and the Middle East.

BBC said:
13 July 2011 Last updated at 16:10 ET
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Libyan rebels abused civilians: Human Rights Watch
Libyan rebels gather at the front line in the Nafusa Mountains in Western Libya, on 10 July Territory north of the Nafusa Mountains is currently an active sector of the front line
Continue reading the main story
Libya Crisis

The story so far
Rebels' major advance
Why is it taking so long?
Why is France arming rebels?

The campaign group, Human Rights Watch, has accused rebels in Libya of looting, arson and the abuse of civilians.

Observers from the New York-based group say they have witnessed some incidents themselves, and have interviewed witnesses to others in territory recently seized by rebels.

A rebel spokesman talking to reporters in Brussels has denied the allegations.

Accusations of abuse by both sides have circulated since the rebellion against Col Muammar Gaddafi began in February.

The latest allegations focus on four towns seized by rebels in the west of the country in the last month: al-Awaniya, Rayayinah, Zawiyat al-Bagul and al-Qawalish.

"The rebel conduct was disturbing," said Fred Abrahams, a special adviser to Human Rights Watch (HRW).

"We documented fairly widespread looting of homes and shops, the burning of some homes of suspected Gaddafi supporters and - most disturbingly - the vandalisation of three medical clinics [and] local small hospitals, including the theft of some of the medical equipment."

He said the Libyan government had committed more serious crimes, but that did not excuse the behaviour of the rebels.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

This is not the case in the liberated areas.”

Mahmoud Jibril Rebel spokesman

"Our aim is to hold all combatants, all militaries - whether they're organised and states and governments or rebels groups - to the same standards, and it's very much also a warning shot across the bow, because of these other areas they are approaching. We're deeply worried about how they might behave and treat civilians in those areas."

A senior rebel leader has rejected the Human Rights Watch claims.

"This is not the case in the liberated areas," rebel spokesman Mahmoud Jibril told reporters in Brussels.

In the latest development from this sector of the frontline, rebel fighters have said they have retaken al-Qawalish, a village about 100km (60 miles) south of Tripoli.

Click to play

The BBC's Paul Wood: "The rebel frontline is collapsing"

Earlier, forces loyal to Col Gaddafi seized control after the rebels took to their vehicles and fled without a fight, reversing weeks of steady advances, BBC World Affairs editor John Simpson reports.

Our correspondent says this shows how feeble the rebel forces can be.

Even though they are only an hour's drive from Tripoli, Wednesday's fighting will presumably encourage Col Gaddafi to keep up his resistance for a while longer, he adds.

The retreat came after rebel spies reported a build-up of military vehicles in Garyan, the last major pro-Gaddafi military base before the capital.

But by the evening, the rebels had staged a successful counterattack, spokesman Abdurahman Alzintani told Reuters news agency.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
The rebels are launching the long-awaited attack on Brega, in force. This AJE report shows the units that are launching it:
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(The reporter says that the rebels are using some WWII tanks, but I'm pretty sure that's just her being a silly woman journalist who doesn't know a thing about military weaponry).

They have dozens of refurbished AFVs, and apparently several thousand men. Donated US/UK uniforms, gear, ballistic vests and stuff is visible on the soldiers.

The Tweets and things that I have seen from the front line indicate that there is coordination with NATO and ongoing NATO attack helicopter runs, as well as an artillery and rocket barrage by the rebels. The rebels are attacking in a few columns with tanks and BMPs.

Side note: earlier in the thread (months ago) I said that I knew when the attack on Brega would happen. I actually did have some inside info, but the attack that it was referring to was delayed by a sandstorm and then defeated. So I wasn't referring to this. In fact the last inside info that I got about the Brega front said not to expect offensive action, but I think I was purposefully deceived :eek:

On the subject of child soldiers, I can say that having watched hours of combat videos from Libya, I've never seen anyone fighting who was obviously a kid (although I'd reckon I've probably seen a few 16 and 17 year olds).
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Here's a very good summary of the situation in Brega:
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Brega is a very large area, with some built up spots and large expanses of empty sand in between. The entire area has been heavily mined, and the Qaddafi forces are holed up in the Western part of the town where the airport and oil refinery area. The eastern part has been taken by the rebels.

Most of the Qaddafi forces have apparently retreated south towards Bishr, and I suspect that they'll set up a defensive position at El Aghelia, where Rommel did the exact same thing in WWII. In Brega itself, some of the Qaddafi forces seem to be surrounded (or at least nearly surrounded). Their ability to stand and fight might be helped by the fact that the rebels are probably not very willing to use their new heavy artillery (lots of BM-21s, some old Soviet SPGs and probably about 20 D-30 155 mm towed arty tubes) against targets near the precious oil refinery.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Where's
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? Why aren't they denouncing this?

You can bet that if this was of pro-Qaddaffi forces, they would be all over this like its nobody's business and the ICC would be adding another charge on their wanted poster.

But since its the rebels doing it, well aren't those kids cute and brave!

I don't care how justified your cause is, but you should not be putting guns in the hands of young kids at all during wartime.

The obvious moral objections aside, just practically it is a silly thing to do. As McCool already pointed out, kids hardly make for the most reliable or capable of soldiers, but what more, at best having such images out would make it so much easier for pro-Gaddaffi forces to disguise civilian casualties they cause unintentionally as 'child soldiers'. At worst this gives them a motive and excuse to actively target what most people would normally consider as 'non-combatants' (since the rebels are not professional soldiers, the term 'civilian' is inappropriate here).

There are very good reasons why civilized peoples would never consider using child soldiers unless they were perhaps fighting to save themselves from extermination, in which case the normal rules go out the window, but that is not the case here so its a moot point.
 

zoom

Junior Member

Libya rebel forces' chief of staff dead



BENGHAZI, July 28 (Xinhua) -- Libyan opposition leader Moustafa Abdel-Jalil said Thursday that the rebel forces' chief of staff Abdel Fattah Younes was killed.

The National Transitional Council (NTC) chairman Jalil told a press conference that supporters of Muammar Gaddafi were responsible for the death of Younes. Two other military leaders were also killed.

The NTC would hold a three-day mourning for the death of Younes, Jalil said in the reble's stronghold Benghazi.

The Libyan government in Tripoli has not commented on the statement of the NTC.
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member

Libya rebel forces' chief of staff dead




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Something very fishy sounding about all that. I'm not going to speculate until more info comes out, but I'm suspicious because it's strongly rumored that he was on his way to Benghazi to answer questions about his ties to Qaddafi. In any case, Fatah Younes wasn't a very good general in my opinion. A lot of blustery talk, not a lot action. He didn't have much effect on anything relevant to the frontline soldiers from what I understand.

In the meantime, the rebels in the Nafusa Mountains, far away from the drama queens in Benghazi, launched their largest offensive yet against Qaddafi positions around the villages of Ghezaia, Tkut and Jawash. This area had served as the launching point for Qaddafi attacks on the Wazin border crossing. Every night for the last month or so, Grad launchers in Ghezaia have fired on the rebel-held city of Nalut. The offensive showed organization of the sort that we don't often see from the rebels; it involved probably about 2000 men with some armor and heavy artillery in coordinated attacks launched at dawn. So far progress has been somewhat mixed; Ghezaia seems to have been taken, Tkut is unknown, and Jawash was captured but the rebels withdrew in the face of a counterattack (or ambush; couldn't tell based on the brief account I read).
 

Baibar of Jalat

Junior Member
Something very fishy sounding about all that. I'm not going to speculate until more info comes out, but I'm suspicious because it's strongly rumored that he was on his way to Benghazi to answer questions about his ties to Qaddafi. In any case, Fatah Younes wasn't a very good general in my opinion. A lot of blustery talk, not a lot action. He didn't have much effect on anything relevant to the frontline soldiers from what I understand.

In the meantime, the rebels in the Nafusa Mountains, far away from the drama queens in Benghazi, launched their largest offensive yet against Qaddafi positions around the villages of Ghezaia, Tkut and Jawash. This area had served as the launching point for Qaddafi attacks on the Wazin border crossing. Every night for the last month or so, Grad launchers in Ghezaia have fired on the rebel-held city of Nalut. The offensive showed organization of the sort that we don't often see from the rebels; it involved probably about 2000 men with some armor and heavy artillery in coordinated attacks launched at dawn. So far progress has been somewhat mixed; Ghezaia seems to have been taken, Tkut is unknown, and Jawash was captured but the rebels withdrew in the face of a counterattack (or ambush; couldn't tell based on the brief account I read).

They could of just replaced him. Killing an imcompetant is worse. More importantly he had factions of former Libyan Army under his control. The loyalists in Gaddafi areas know the various rebel factions cant be trusted. They will have more incentive to fight due to unsanctioned fear of revenge. All rebel areas have seen revenge attacks. BTW, The rebels have made a deal to hand over Lockiebie bomber, Mergharani tribe wont be happy.

The rebel successes are largely down to areas they are attacking areas that only have minimal and poorly trained government troops, plus extensive Nato help. Look at Brega and Misrata, even with heavy Nato air support they have had limited success.

Interestingly various sources have said Rebels have had over a thousand causalties whilst attacking Brega. US needs to do more, they need to forgot their domestic issues, like Cameron has done:(
 
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