The Civil War in Libya

Mr T

Senior Member
The British and especially the French are very keen on preserving their colonial influence and advantages

Libya is a former Italian colony. Britain and France administered it after the war, but allowed it to gain independence a matter of years later. Whereas France fought tooth and nail to stop Algeria becoming independent. So you're talking rubbish.

I didn't talk about prices, I talked about supply, and leverage in negotiations. This is called the strategic picture, not immediately visible or short term results. And check the news, earlier this month the Saudis FAILED to convince the rest of OPEC to increase production.

Eh, what are you talking about? There's no shortage of oil for NATO members, so prices are what count. And the Saudis released supplies because OPEC wouldn't increase production. They've also indicated they will personally increase production. They don't need a permission slip from OPEC to do that. Which is why some other OPEC members like Iran and Venezuela are angry, as they need oil prices as high as possible to bolster their domestic support.

Making deals with Qaddafi makes him stronger in the long run, why do that when there's a golden opportunity for an intervention and overthrow him?

Who cares if Gaddafi is strong if you want access to Libya's resources? Better to be best friends with him.

Afghanistan and Libya are at least blatantly different in one respect, geography. Look at where each country is and it's no surprise Afghanistan made deals with China. At the same time those are not the only deals nor the biggest deals Afghanistan is making.

Good grief, man, we live in the 21st century, not the 19th! Geography isn't a bar to investment or mining contracts to the extent you suggest it is. Look at all the investment China has already run into Africa. Which continent do you think Libya is part of?! And don't you even know that China was buying a fair chunk of Libyan oil before the war? Don't you think it could do the same afterwards?

And my point, which you miserably failed to note, is that helping someone establish a government is no guarantee against them making deals with other countries.
 
Libya is a former Italian colony. Britain and France administered it after the war, but allowed it to gain independence a matter of years later. Whereas France fought tooth and nail to stop Algeria becoming independent. So you're talking rubbish.

You're missing the point. The Italians didn't want to intervene precisely because they already had significant deals and investments in place in Qaddafi's Libya. The French and British didn't and so spearheaded the intervention, presenting Italy with a fait accompli. Colonies or subjugated countries can change 'masters' for example how the Phillipines went from the Spanish to the Americans after the Spanish-American War.

Eh, what are you talking about? There's no shortage of oil for NATO members, so prices are what count. And the Saudis released supplies because OPEC wouldn't increase production. They've also indicated they will personally increase production. They don't need a permission slip from OPEC to do that. Which is why some other OPEC members like Iran and Venezuela are angry, as they need oil prices as high as possible to bolster their domestic support.

Clearly we're talking apples and oranges here, you're focusing on the immediate supply and pricing, I'm talking about the UK and France laying the groundwork for long term supply, deals, and leverage. So we move on.

Who cares if Gaddafi is strong if you want access to Libya's resources? Better to be best friends with him.

Apparently not if the French and British want to overthrow him when there's an opening.

Good grief, man, we live in the 21st century, not the 19th! Geography isn't a bar to investment or mining contracts to the extent you suggest it is. Look at all the investment China has already run into Africa. Which continent do you think Libya is part of?! And don't you even know that China was buying a fair chunk of Libyan oil before the war? Don't you think it could do the same afterwards?

And my point, which you miserably failed to note, is that helping someone establish a government is no guarantee against them making deals with other countries.

You're mistaking my point, which has nothing to do with geography being an impediment to investment. I am saying geography defines which powers' sphere of influence a country falls under.

Precisely because we're in the 21st century I noted clearly in my previous post that military intervention, installation of a government, and continued activities to maintain influence afterwards can achieve the effects of colonialism without the intervening power having to plant their flag. Sure there are no guarantees either way, but it would be denial to think that it would have no effect.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
AP said:
Spain: Libya war may be al-Qaida weapons source

By Ciaran Giles - The Associated Press

MADRID — Sophisticated Libyan army weapons are being trafficked and possibly sold to al-Qaida's affiliate in North Africa, giving the group the potential to increase instability in a key part of the continent, Spain's interior minister said Thursday.

Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba said al-Qaida of the Islamic Maghreb, or AQMI, is a growing menace that could conceivably spread outside its natural homeground of the Sahel region of Africa unless Western countries step up efforts to counter it.

The West considers North Africa, which is just across the Mediterranean from Europe, as vital in the fight against terrorism. Algeria, where an Islamist insurgency erupted in 1992 with sporadic attacks continuing, has become a key U.S. ally in the anti-terrorism battle.

Rubalcaba briefed reporters during a break in a meeting with colleagues from five other EU countries and U.S. Homeland Security Director Janet Napolitano. The countries agreed among other things to set up a permanent coordination mechanism for their countries' liaison people in the Sahel region — the vast, bone-dry stretch of land just below sub-Saharan Africa that includes countries such as Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Chad.

They also agreed to reach out to the African Union to step up joint counter terrorism efforts, Perez Rubalcaba said.

Perez Rubalcaba said fairly sophisticated weapons from Libyan army forces fighting to keep Moammar Gadhafi in power as rebel forces try to oust him are being sold by traffickers at Libya's southern border and possibly ending up in the hands of AQMI.

"The Libyan crisis is having an influence on AQMI," he said. "One that we find particularly negative is the possible appearance of arms from the Libyan army, or what remains of it, in the hands of terrorists."

The Libyan civil war is giving AQMI potential to increase its influence in the Sahel region, where it is active after having first surfaced in Algeria.

"Organized crime would probably grow because it is clear they are linked, and risks for Europe and the United States would grow," Perez Rubalcaba said.

Besides Rubalcaba and Napolitano, the meeting was attended by representatives of Italy, Germany, France, Britain and Poland.

Napolitano stressed the need to step up security against terrorists targeting the transport of goods across the world.

"The global supply chain security issue is one of our priorities," Napolitano told The AP in an interview.

"We had been working on this before last October but when AQAP — al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula — had hidden bombs in two toner cartridges that were put in air cargo it illustrated that they were willing to try to blow up a plane, be it a passenger plane or a cargo plane. So we accelerated our efforts in this regard."

Napolitano said material confiscated at the compound where Osama bin Laden had been living in Pakistan — and killed in a U.S. raid in early May — confirmed Washington was on the right track, adding that the material mentioned surface transportation as a target for attack.

She said the U.S. government was in contact with domestic and international air, land and sea transport institutions to see how best to minimize this threat.

"There's much that can be done," she said. "The movement of cargo around the world supplies the international economy and you have got to make sure that there is security in that movement because jobs depend on it, manufacturing depends on it."

———

Daniel Woolls contributed to this report.
On the other side.

AP said:
UK sends body armor, police uniforms to Libya

By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press – 7 hours ago

LONDON (AP) — Libya's opposition leader said Thursday that rebels needed more weapons and funding, as China and Russia raised concern over revelations that France had supplied arms to civilians fighting Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

Mahmoud Jibril, of Libya's Transitional National Council, said foreign deliveries of military hardware would give the rebels a chance to "decide this battle quickly (and) to spill as little blood as possible."

Jibril spoke after meeting Austrian Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger and a day after France acknowledged air-dropping weapons to the rebels.

French military spokesman Col. Thierry Burkhard said Wednesday that France had airlifted weapons to Libyan civilians in a mountain region south of Tripoli. The deliveries of guns, rocket-propelled grenades and munitions took place in early June in the western Nafusa mountains, when Gadhafi's troops had encircled civilians.

Britain's government insisted that the French decision to supply weapons fell within the terms of the United Nations Security Council resolution that authorizes international action in Libya.

But China and Russia both questioned whether or not the supplying of weapons contravened the international agreement.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said his ministry had asked France for further details. "We are awaiting a response. If it is confirmed, it's a flagrant violation," of the resolution, he said.

Russia abstained in the U.N. vote on Libya and has voiced concern about civilian casualties and excessive use of force during the NATO-led air campaign, which began in March.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei did not mention France by name, but told reporters that nations should not overstep the remit of the U.N. resolutions.

"China calls on the international community to strictly follow the spirit of the relevant resolution of the U.N. Security Council and avoid taking any action that goes beyond the mandate of the resolution," he said.

On Monday in London, China's Premier Wen Jiabao said nations should seek a political solution to demands for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to step down after 42 years in power.

Jalal el-Gallal, spokesman for Libya's opposition council, insisted France had acted correctly. "China has the right to disagree but the U.N. resolution stipulates whatever means necessary to protect civilians," he said.

British Foreign Secretary William Hague announced Thursday the U.K. was sending 5,000 sets of body armor, 6,650 uniforms, 5,000 high-visibility vests and communications equipment to police officers in rebel-held areas.

He said the new supplies would help Libya's opposition protect civilians and the growing community of diplomats and aid workers in eastern Libya.

Police will be able to "better protect Transitional National Council representatives and the significant international and NGO communities in Benghazi, Misrata and other areas of Libya" under opposition control, Hague said.

In Austria, Jibril warned that unless the opposition council receives large amounts of foreign money, schools will not be able to open later this year. It follows warnings from the rebels that hospitals are also running short on cash and supplies.

Earlier this week, the opposition was handed an initial $100 million in donor money to pay for salaries and fuel. The international contact group on Libya has already pledged to supply more than $1.3 billion for Libya's opposition.

Austrian officials, who asked for anonymity because their information was sensitive, said the government was ready to unfreeze some of the billions of dollars frozen in Austrian accounts and funnel them to the rebels but only after making sure that such a move did not violate laws prohibiting the rights of the account holders, many of them private citizens.

___

George Jahn reported from Vienna. David Nowak in Moscow and Rami al-Shaheibi in Benghazi, Libya, contributed to this report.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I despise anyone who uses Children for fighting. sadly The Geneva convention does not make a truly hard stand agenst such a practice.
Article 77.2 of the Additional Protocol I said:
The Parties to the conflict shall take all feasible measures in order that children who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, the Parties to the conflict shall endeavor to give priority to those who are oldest.
Underline and bold my additions, but the phrasing being key as it does not out right ban them rather I does not encourage there use, More or less turning a blind eye.
 

MwRYum

Major
I despise anyone who uses Children for fighting. sadly The Geneva convention does not make a truly hard stand agenst such a practice.
Underline and bold my additions, but the phrasing being key as it does not out right ban them rather I does not encourage there use, More or less turning a blind eye.

It's tough to expect them to seriously adhere by international law...
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
The recruiting practices of the rebels are pretty much this:
1) Show up
2) Try to get a gun
3) If you can't get a gun carry water, ammo, etc.
4) Go to the fight

They're not conscripting minors, but they're certainly not making an effort to keep 16 and 17 year olds away from the fight. They should though. Having a bunch of kids running around isn't conducive to good battlefield discipline. They're probably only going to get themselves killed or abandon their position at the first Grad.

In other news, the rebels continued their steady advance towards the mountain town of Gheryan. Here's my summary of the action in the last 24 hours (or as best as I can tell right now): The Qaddafi forces opposite the town of Qawalish, about 15 miles up the road from Gheryan and recently captured by the rebels, mounted a counter attack to try to regain Qawalish. The disorganized rebel frontline quickly collapsed, and the town fell. But rebel casualties were minimal (probably about 10 or less) and soon reinforcements arrived. The rebel counterattack recaptured Qawalish and the Qaddafi troops retreated, giving up what had been their frontline positions. Qaddafi casualties are unknown, but they were heavier than the rebels.
 
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