Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.


Mr T

Senior Member
What is the point of operating land based Harpoon when land based HF-2 already exists? Seems needlessly redundant.
I think there was mention about them being mobile, so they may come with a kit to make it easy to put them on locally manufactured vehicles. Taiwan has plenty of anti-ship missiles, but having more highly-mobile launchers would be a good thing for them.

Plus the (regular) HF-II is a bit old. Block 2 has only just gone into production, although I don't know if that's going to be on a highly-mobile system given HF-III might be a better candidate.

Depending on what is actually part of the package, this could be Taiwan concerned that China could invade in the next 5 years irrespective of what they (Taiwan) do so they're looking to urgently acquire more high-quality anti-ship missiles.
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
Longer range the HF2 has a range of about 250km Harpoon 280km

I am not sure if the Taiwanese tried before to get HIMARS. All three previous US Administrations have made major sales to Taiwan it’s just a question of what.
Now that I think of it, maybe if the cost is extremely cheap (Harpoons being retired). 30 km not really going to change the strategic balance at all for extra logistic headaches (this is a huge problem for ROC armed forces right now).

I remember there was a lot of talk of getting HIMARS around ~2000's years. About the time NORINCO was aggressively marketing the WS-1B for export. The idea was that PRC was rapidly enhancing their regular rocket artillery forces (not just the then named 2nd Artillery BM forces). This was then further noted as a point of urgency when there was some video of rockets launched from cargo ships as proof of an inevitable salvo of PRC rockets that would decimate fixed positions. Obviously talk and reality are different things. But there was so much talk, that at some point I had just assumed it had already happened.

I think there was mention about them being mobile, so they may come with a kit to make it easy to put them on locally manufactured vehicles. Taiwan has plenty of anti-ship missiles, but having more highly-mobile launchers would be a good thing for them.

Plus the (regular) HF-II is a bit old. Block 2 has only just gone into production, although I don't know if that's going to be on a highly-mobile system given HF-III might be a better candidate.

Depending on what is actually part of the package, this could be Taiwan concerned that China could invade in the next 5 years irrespective of what they (Taiwan) do so they're looking to urgently acquire more high-quality anti-ship missiles.
Harpoon is also just as old and on its way out. HF-II is also available in mobile launch. Other than cost, I can't see how training-wise, integration-wise, logistics-wise it makes sense.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Now that I think of it, maybe if the cost is extremely cheap (Harpoons being retired).
I'm fairly sure they'll be brand new. There have been a number of Harpoon DSCA notifications in the last few years (including this year), which means the production line is still open.

Harpoon is also just as old and on its way out. HF-II is also available in mobile launch. Other than cost, I can't see how training-wise, integration-wise, logistics-wise it makes sense.
Harpoon Block II is much more advanced than the baseline HF-II. There's also the II+ and II+ER which are available for the surface-launched type.

As I said, the HF-II Block 2 has only fairly recently gone into production, and in all honesty I have no idea how it compares to a Harpoon Block II, let alone Block II+/ER - I doubt the Taiwanese-designed missile will be better. If there is a fear of a Chinese attack in the coming years before the HF-III and new HF-II are available in sufficient numbers, a US Harpoon purchase is sensible.

The US is replacing Harpoon, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful in a land-based role for Taiwan. Also, even new Harpoon blocks are much cheaper than something like LRASM (which to my knowledge currently can only be launched from the air or a Mk-41 VLS).
 
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tupolevtu144

Junior Member
Registered Member
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US approves $1.8bn weapons sale to Taiwan

The US has approved arms sales to Taiwan worth around $1.8bn (£1.4bn), in a move that is likely to increase tensions with China.
The Pentagon said the deal comprised three weapons systems, including rocket launchers, sensors and artillery.
Taiwan, which considers itself a country, is seen as a renegade province by China.
Tensions have increased in recent years and Beijing has not ruled out the use of force to take the island back.
Last week, US national security adviser Robert O'Brien said that while he did not believe China was ready to invade Taiwan, the island needed to "fortify itself" for the future.
Taiwan's defence ministry said the weapons would help it "build credible combat capabilities and strengthen the development of asymmetric warfare".
The deal includes 135 precision-guided cruise missiles, as well as mobile light rocket launchers and air reconnaissance pods that can be attached to fighter jets.
The BBC's Taiwan correspondent Cindy Sui says that under President Donald Trump, the US has sold significantly more weapons to Taiwan than before.
The island has also been seeking backing from the current administration, which, unlike its predecessors, seems willing to challenge the delicate balance Washington has maintained for decades with China and Taiwan, says our correspondent.
China's Foreign Ministry says the arms deal would likely have a major impact on its relationship with the US and that it would respond as necessary, according to Reuters news agency.
In recent months, the US has been intensifying its outreach to Taiwan. In August, the highest-ranking US politician to visit Taiwan in decades met the island's president, Tsai Ing-wen.
Beijing strongly criticised the meeting, warning the US "not to send any wrong signals to 'Taiwan independence' elements to avoid severe damage to China-US relations".
China has also stepped up military drills that it presents domestically as rehearsals for a future invasion of Taiwan, though experts say a conflict is not imminent.
While the US does sell Taiwan arms, and has an implicit security guarantee, it does not have a formal defence treaty with Taiwan as it does with Japan, South Korea and the Philippines.
China and Taiwan were divided during a civil war in the 1940s but Beijing insists the island will be reclaimed at some point, by force if necessary.
Tensions have risen in recent years with the election of Ms Tsai as Taiwan's president, seen as an opponent of Beijing.

Official arms sale includes:
  1. 11 HIMARS systems
  2. 64 ATACMS
  3. 6 sets of MS-110 targeting pods
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
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US approves $1.8bn weapons sale to Taiwan

The US has approved arms sales to Taiwan worth around $1.8bn (£1.4bn), in a move that is likely to increase tensions with China.
The Pentagon said the deal comprised three weapons systems, including rocket launchers, sensors and artillery.
Taiwan, which considers itself a country, is seen as a renegade province by China.
Tensions have increased in recent years and Beijing has not ruled out the use of force to take the island back.
Last week, US national security adviser Robert O'Brien said that while he did not believe China was ready to invade Taiwan, the island needed to "fortify itself" for the future.
Taiwan's defence ministry said the weapons would help it "build credible combat capabilities and strengthen the development of asymmetric warfare".
The deal includes 135 precision-guided cruise missiles, as well as mobile light rocket launchers and air reconnaissance pods that can be attached to fighter jets.
The BBC's Taiwan correspondent Cindy Sui says that under President Donald Trump, the US has sold significantly more weapons to Taiwan than before.
The island has also been seeking backing from the current administration, which, unlike its predecessors, seems willing to challenge the delicate balance Washington has maintained for decades with China and Taiwan, says our correspondent.
China's Foreign Ministry says the arms deal would likely have a major impact on its relationship with the US and that it would respond as necessary, according to Reuters news agency.
In recent months, the US has been intensifying its outreach to Taiwan. In August, the highest-ranking US politician to visit Taiwan in decades met the island's president, Tsai Ing-wen.
Beijing strongly criticised the meeting, warning the US "not to send any wrong signals to 'Taiwan independence' elements to avoid severe damage to China-US relations".
China has also stepped up military drills that it presents domestically as rehearsals for a future invasion of Taiwan, though experts say a conflict is not imminent.
While the US does sell Taiwan arms, and has an implicit security guarantee, it does not have a formal defence treaty with Taiwan as it does with Japan, South Korea and the Philippines.
China and Taiwan were divided during a civil war in the 1940s but Beijing insists the island will be reclaimed at some point, by force if necessary.
Tensions have risen in recent years with the election of Ms Tsai as Taiwan's president, seen as an opponent of Beijing.

Official arms sale includes:
  1. 11 HIMARS systems
  2. 64 ATACMS
  3. 6 sets of MS-110 targeting pods
You missed the 135 SLAM-ER mentioned in the article (135 cruise missiles), as you previously posted "confirmed"

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This article says the official value of the 135 SLAM ER sale is at ~1 billion. $7.5/missile? Seems insane.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
This article says the official value of the 135 SLAM ER sale is at ~1 billion. $7.5/missile? Seems insane.
It includes training missiles that brings it up to 151, so more like $6.5 million per missile.

It's important to remember that no one gets the unit cost ($3 million) in a foreign sale. More importantly the notification includes canisters, spare parts, test equipment, training, engineering and logistics support, etc. That bumps the cost up. I actually thought that the cost would be higher or Taiwan would get fewer missiles.

I wonder how it would take for them to be delivered.
The HIMARS and ATACMS could definitely be delivered in a few years because they've already been manufactured, although it's possible the latter would need to be refurbished before it they didn't get the upgrade that went through some years ago.
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
Turkey (Of course this was 2006)
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50 missiles, $162 million = $3.24m/missile
Adjusting for inflation (1.25), still only $4m per missile

Also take into consideration, Saudi is paying for all production line costs for their SLAM order
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Just to follow up
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Saudi Arabia bought 650 SLAM for $2b. Taiwan is paying ~5X more
650 for two billion would mean Taiwan was paying a bit more than double. Still informative, thanks for sharing. It would appear that sometimes Taiwan does pay extra. That said I think Taiwan would prefer to pay the premium and get access to them.

Plus it's not always the case that Taiwan pays a premium. It got 66 F-16Vs (plus stuff) for $8 billion, whereas Morocco got 25 for a bit under $4 billion (albeit with missiles and other sundries) and Egypt got 24 Block 50s for just over $3 billion. So it's not always that straightforward.
 
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