Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
What I mean is, the Kang Ding class (the french La Fayette-class) is the best offensive combatant the ROCN has - its stealth shaping (supposedly when they were newly built and going back to Taiwan the ROCN sent ships to find it because they can't be seen on the radar) and the recent news of Taiwanese military's recent breakthrough in developing stealth coating

(
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) means the La Fayette-class would be a more capable silent assassin in sea (like a Ninja!).
Nope, not that either.

The Kee Lungs would be more powerful offensively because they have better electronics for defense, better air defense, and better ability to find and prosecute submarines threats. They would have a much better chance f surviving to get within effective range of their missiles.

Do not get me wrong...the Kang Ding are good vessels. IN a SAG or other tak force they will perform admirably...particularly,. as I say, when they get that better air defense.

But in a war at sea scenario, the other side is going to be using all they have to find the adversary. It is very likely that in the defense of the island, that anything trying to address threats in the straits is going to be found out and targeted. They will have to survive that targeting long enough to get within range to strike.

The stealth shaping that the Kang Dings have is not an end all. It helps, but those other traits have to be strong too for it to get within range of its SSMs.
 

Franklin

Captain
Taiwan's Navy, though filled with transferred US Navy technology, is no slouch.

They have seven major surface combatant classes that I will cover over the next couple of posts.

The first four classes represent a force of twenty-six capable, major surface combatants. All of them are principally foreign designed (either US Navy or French), but do incorporate some ROC weapons and sensors.

Kee Lung Class Destroyers (ex-US Navy Kidd Class)

These four destroyers are Taiwan's largest and most capable Naval combatants. They represent the transfer of the entire Kidd-class vessels of the US Navy. The Kidd class were initially built for the Shah of Iran and were highly upgraded versions of the Spruance class destroyers.

They are very quiet (for ASW operations), carried two Sea Haw helicopters, had two, twin armed missile launchers for Standard missiles (and were just like the US nuclear cruisers and the initial Ticonderoga cruisers in that regard), each with a forty missile magazine, the carrier eight Harpoon missiles, two Phalnx 20mm CIWS, two three tube torpedo launchers, and two 127mm DP guns.

They are packed with an array of very modern, very sophisticated sensors from sonars to air radar to surface radar and very good electronics.

They were built to be air conditioned for the very hot Mid-East conditions, and were typically called "AEGIS-Light," by US Navy personnel because they were so capable in all regards.

These destroyers can operate in a cooperative engagement mode with US Navy AEGIS class destroyers and Cruisers, which is a very powerful capability.

These four vessels are the Republic of China's Navy (ROCN) to the four Sovremenny destroyers that the PLAN received from Russia.


Cheng Kung Class Frigates(US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class)
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The ROCN currently has eight of these vessels which were license built by the ROC in Taiwan. The ROCN is in the process of purchasing two more from the US Navy which will result in a total of ten such vessels.

They are strong multi-role frigates and can be data linked to US Navy combatants, particularly AEGIS destroyers.

They include forty SM-1 MR anti-air medium ranged missiles. They have seperate launchers for eight surface to surface missiles, thereby reserving all 40 standard missile slots for air defense (where the US Navy vessels launched their SSMs from the single armed launcher, thereby using up part of their missile magazine. The vessels are also armed with six torpedo tubes, a rapid firing, dual-purpose 76mm naval gun, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, two 40mm bofors cannons (also added specially for the ROCN ships), and can carry two S-70 C Seahawk ASW helicopters in their large hanger, aft on the vessels.

Their modern sensor suite is well suited for air, surface, and sub-surface search, acquisition and targeting.


Kang ding Class Frigates (French La Faytette Class)

These six modern frigates were built to the French La Fayette Frigte design, with changes for Taiwan.

In 1992, the ROC contracted with prime contractor Thales (formerly Thomson CSF), arranging for the construction of these six French Lafayette style ships. Weapons assembly was to take place in Taiwan, carried out by the China SB Corporation at Kaohsiung. The frigates were built in France at state shipbuilder DCN's Lorient Naval Dockyard.

These frigates were built to the stealthy Lafayette design but differ both structurally and particularly in the weapons fit since the French refused to sell the modern French weapons systems, though they did sell them the sensors. Using US and indigenous weapons, the frigate's anti-submarine capability has been considerably enhanced and additional guns have also been fitted.

They are armed with a 76mm DP gun, two 40mm Bofors cannons, six torpedoe launchers, eight Hsung Feng II anti-shipping/surface missiles, one Phalanx 20mm CIWS, a single ASW helicopter with hanger, and a Se Chaparral anti-air system with four ready to fire missiles.

Without a modern anti-air weapon, the ROC looked initially at the US Rolling Air Frame Missile (RAM) system for these vessel for a future refit. However, that purchase and refit never occurred. Recently the ROCN announced their intention to fit the vessels with a Taiwan indigenous Ship-Based Tien Chien II/Sky Sword II missile system in 2017. With a range between 2 and 60 kilometers, this modern system will provide very adequate air defense for the Kang Ding FFGs, as well as any vessels they might escort. This system will greatly enhance the AAW capabilities of these vessels.

Until that time, the vessels remain markedly under armed in terms of air defense relying on an antiquated Sea Chaparral system. It is only capable of countering low-flying aircraft and lacks antimissile capability and does not have a very good anti-jamming capability. After the four loaded missiles are fired, the remaining eight have to be manually loaded, so it cannot adapt to modern war at sea threat conditions.

The primary role of these frigates, like the US Perry FFG derived Cheng Kung frigates, is, in conjunction with other ROCN vessels, to provide sea control, particularly protecting ROC sea lanes and ROC interests in the South China Sea and Twaian Straits.


Chi Yang Class Frigates (ex-US Navy Knox Class)

The Chi Yang class represents older US Navy Knox class frigates that were sold to Taiwan in the 1990s, after the end of their US Navy service life.

These vessels were multi-role frigates, but well known vfor their ASW capabilities.

They have been upgraded with newer weapons systems, and added ten Standard Missile box launchers to each vessel, significantly increasing their anti-air defense capability.

In addition to the ten SM-1 anti-air missiles, these vessels are armed with a single ASW helo, a 127mm gun, an eight cell box launcher for ASROC ASW weapons and Harpoon missiles, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, and four ASW torpedoes.

The Republic of China Navy received eight of these vessels in the 1990s and they are all still active

The problem with Taiwan's navy is the same as the Taiwanese air force. They are falling behind that of China's both in terms of quantity and quality. Taiwans navy like its air force is technologically frozen in time while that of China's is moving forward at lightning fast speed.

All of Taiwan's large naval vessel's have serious deficiencies.

The Keelung (Kidd) class DDG is being equipped with a electronic/combat suite that is no longer used by the USN and the Americans are no longer storing or making new parts for these systems. So the Americans are supplying Taiwan with spare parts they cannibalized from decommissioned ships.

The Kang Ding (La Fayette) class FFG supplied by France came without the weapons or any of the electronic systems and the Taiwanese had to try to fit American and Taiwanese technology on to a French ship. That is still causing problems today. The Kang Ding class still doesn't have a proper air defense system but will get a ship launched version of the Sky Sword 2 AAM in the coming years.

The Chi Yang (Knox) class FFG is just too old. Those ships are now over 40 years old and are close of being decommissioned. The ROC is going to buy 4 second hand OHP class FFG from America. We are not sure yet but those might just replace the Chi Yang class in the ROCN.

The Cheng Kung class is Taiwan's licence build OHP and I consider those to be the best FFG's the Taiwanese got. But even that platform is now technologically falling behind the newest FFG's of the PLAN like the Type 054A+.

None of the Taiwanese ships have VLS, AESA or over the horizon radar. Those things are now becoming commen in new PLAN ships. Without a domestic industry that can match that of China's the gap between the Taiwanese and Chinese navy like with the air force will only grow in the coming years.

And with better surveillance, air cover, missile's, radar and targetting systems from China I'm rather skeptical about these new smaller boats that the Taiwanese are building are going to be effective.

So' what can Taiwan do ? I don't know. What advise can you give a kid that is about to box with Mike Tyson in his heydays ?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Keelung (Kidd) class DDG is being equipped with a electronic/combat suite that is no longer used by the USN and the Americans are no longer storing or making new parts for these systems. So the Americans are supplying Taiwan with spare parts they cannibalized from decommissioned ships.
So?

The New Threat Upgrade that the ships were outfitted with allows them to this day to communicate with and perform cooperative engagement with AEGIS vessels.

Yes, the systems are older, but they are still very viable and effective...and the US has plenty of spare parts to last the ROCN through the life of these vessels.

As I say, they are quite formidable surface combatants.

Just like the Kirovs, the Slavas and the Sovremennys are to this day. The PLAN will not underestimate them...or would be foolish to do so.

The Kang Ding (La Fayette) class FFG supplied by France came without the weapons or any of the electronic systems and the Taiwanese had to try to fit American and Taiwanese technology on to a French ship. That is still causing problems today. The Kang Ding class still doesn't have a proper air defense system but will get a ship launched version of the Sky Sword 2 AAM in the coming years.
I believe I addressed all of this already. With the Sky Sword II missiles that will tested in 2016 and installed in 2017, their air-coverage problems will be addressed.

The Kang dings are good multi-purpose vessels, and when they have their better anti-air, and when working in conjunction woith other vessels as a part of a SAG, they will provide important ASuW capabilities to the whole.

The Chi Yang (Knox) class FFG is just too old. Those ships are now over 40 years old and are close of being decommissioned. The ROC is going to buy 4 second hand OHP class FFG from America. We are not sure yet but those might just replace the Chi Yang class in the ROCN.
Again, they may be old, but that does nbot make them impotent.

Their ASW capabilities remain effective. Their Anti-air self defense capabilities were significantly bolstered by the addition of the ten Standard missile box launchers to each vessel. yes, they will be replaced...but they will also remain effective, particularly in the ASW role until they are.

The Cheng Kung class is Taiwan's licence build OHP and I consider those to be the best FFG's the Taiwanese got. But even that platform is now technologically falling behind the newest FFG's of the PLAN like the Type 054A+.
With the upgrades they have, and with the sensor suites, they are still very effective and potent combat vessels.

Turkey, Spain, and the Australians also recognize this and are keeping them around as long as they can..

Adding the eight box launchers for SSMs was a nice move on the ROCN's part. It is true that the standard missiles the Cheng Kungs carry are not as effective, particularly against low level, ski-skimming missiles. But the Kee Lungs can provide that area coverage, and the Cheng Kungs will have to rely on their CIWS for any leakers.

None of the Taiwanese ships have VLS, AESA or over the horizon radar. Those things are now becoming commen in new PLAN ships. Without a domestic industry that can match that of China's the gap between the Taiwanese and Chinese navy like with the air force will only grow in the coming years.
This is true. But remember, the ROCN will be principally tasked with defense in the vicinity of the island and under its air cover and radars.

They are not meant to go out into the blue water, away from those assets and engage in major blue water war at sea type engagements.

Their war at sea will occur around the island of Taiwan itself.

Are they as good as the new vessels the PLAN is building, or as numerous? No.

But they are still very capable and dangerous weapon systems and any navy wanting to try and penetrate through to the island will have to respect their significant capabilities.

And that is the whole point, They are not meant to win a large war, they are meant to make the prospect of defeating them costly...and therefore give pause to the attempt in the first place.

The planners in Taiwan are not foolish. They know what they face, and they are using the strategy I just outlined, and the resources they do have, to make the best of their situation. I think they are doing a pre4tty good job of it.[/QUOTE]
 

Ultra

Junior Member
So?

The New Threat Upgrade that the ships were outfitted with allows them to this day to communicate with and perform cooperative engagement with AEGIS vessels.

Yes, the systems are older, but they are still very viable and effective...and the US has plenty of spare parts to last the ROCN through the life of these vessels.

Wouldn't that require Aegis ships in the vicinity for these old ships to be effective? :D
And since there is no American naval base close by - with the nearest one in Nagasaki Japan (Sasebo Naval Base) being over 1350 km away, if PLA launch a surprise attack by the time these Aegis ship come to ROCN's help these old ships would all be at the bottom of the ocean already. So unless Taiwan can get a deal for USN to start forward basing in Taiwan, these old ships aren't going to effective. An easier way is to just sell Taiwan Burkes. ;)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Wouldn't that require Aegis ships in the vicinity for these old ships to be effective? :D

And since there is no American naval base close by - with the nearest one in Nagasaki Japan (Sasebo Naval Base) being over 1350 km away, if PLA launch a surprise attack by the time these Aegis ship come to ROCN's help these old ships would all be at the bottom of the ocean ;)
Sorry, Ultra...this is not necessarily so at all.

The New Threat Upgrade (NTU) involved much more than just cooperative engagement with US AEGIS vessels. It provided a lot of sensor and war fighting capability that is intrinsic to the ships themselves. So, in that regard, no, an AEGIS ship does not have to be in the vicinity at all to make a Kee Lung effective in the least.

US Navy personnel called these vessels AEGIS-Litefor a reason...they are very, very good combatants themselves

For the CE (Cooperative Engagement) capability allowing an AEGIS ship to use the Kee Lungs in a cooperative engagement mode, yes, an AEGIS ship has to be in the vicinity...and that does not mean right next to it. They can be many miles apart.

But that would only work in a scenario where the US Navy was fighting with the ROCN.

Without the US Navy, the ROCN has very effective tools for the defense of Taiwan. The PLAN knows this and will respect those vessels and their capabilities greatly. The ROCN knows it too and knows the PRC capabilities.

The ROC has been planning for and establishing contingencies for precisely the "surprise" attack you speak of...and they have been doing so for many, many years. They know what they are about.

it is a gross misrepresentation to think, or postulate that somehow the ROCN is going to be either a push over or a walk in the park for the PLAN. They would not be,
 

Janiz

Senior Member
BTW regarding lack of AEGIS equipped vessels: there's constant presence of US and Japanese warships read for action in every minute in the East China Sea. US Navy and JMSDF are the only navies in the world which deal with those kind of situations in real time thanks to the North Korean missiles flying over Japanese Islands. Best training is real threat and they know how to deal with that.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
True, that Japanese national is presumably the boyfriend of a girl on the Apache tour. He is most likely just tagging along. Currently Japan is operating AH-64D Apache Longbow, while AH-64D Block III is redesignated as AH-64E Guardian in 2012. The Apache service hanger is supposedly to be a restricted area, according to a military personnel inside the Army compound, even he can't enter. The Lt. colonel who brought in the tour group is the son of a retired ROC Army general, who is now working in a civilian company in Mainland China.

You'd be amazed at the amount of access civilian VIPs of questionable relevance can get to photo op with sensitive military equipment, regardless of the country. Ain't cronyism a wonderful thing?
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Rail gun tipped to alter nation’s defense abilities
SPEEDY PAYLOAD:US military analyst Rick Fisher said that China would have to think ‘more than twice’ if its leaders were aware of the weapon’s capabilities
By William Lowther / Staff reporter in WASHINGTON

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Wait, Mr. Fisher does realize that in a cross straits railgun duel (unless he seriously thinks that China can't build railguns sometime in the 2020s), Taiwan is even worse off.

It's like the artillery duel over Kinmen in the 1950s, but with railguns, the area of engagement is over all of Taiwan.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Discussions about nucler war between countries are prohibitied.

Read the Rules.

SD Rules of Behavior said:
No "what if" discussion about war, particularly nuclear war, between China and other nations, or between any nations.

Those posts have been deleted and posters are warned.

Next infraction will bring a suspension.

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