South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I'll take your "disappointment" as a complement. Your private fantasy history doesn't meet historical facts. You have no facts to support Japan's "claim" of Diaoyu before its illegal claim of it in 1895, when there are plenty of historical records showing China's management.

Come back when you're less emotional and more reasonable, and we can chat again. Crying about not getting your way isn't seemly and wouldn't get you sympathies with adults. Until then, you might want to go a read a few non-Japanese history books, since the crap you read are extreme.

When you've compose yourself and wish to discuss reason, show records where Japan has any control over Diaoyu prior to 1895. I can show records where China managed it in 1893.
Aughhhhh, historic records???
Where are they??????
You haven't present a single shred of it!!!!!!
I haven't seen a single link, a photo of a document, any mention of record that I can trace to verify from you and you are telling me I am making thing up after I gave you a link to research that gives you all of it and more????
Get your act straight and do what you preach and show those records !!!!
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Bits and pieces of President-elect Donald Trump's advisors are hitting the interview circuit, and it looks like his administration will be more hostile to China than Obama's administration. Enclosed is a video clip from Lou Dobbs' circus on Fox Financial Network, showing one of Trump's security advisors, KT McFarland talking about China "pushing the US around" in the SCS (starting from the 46-minute mark). I chuckled when I heard her, because facts show China and the US are jostling with each other, and it's not a one-sided affair. Nevertheless, if that's the attitude of President Trump's core team, then relations between the two great powers will probably not improve.

 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Aughhhhh, historic records???
Where are they??????
You haven't present a single shred of it!!!!!!
I haven't seen a single link, a photo of a document, any mention of record that I can trace to verify from you and you are telling me I am making thing up after I gave you a link to research that gives you all of it and more????
Get your act straight and do what you preach and show those records !!!!
Try calming down your rage and passion and read my comments again. I said "I could" produce documents, and not "I did" produce them.

Frankly, the information you asked for are so easy to obtain on the Internet, I wonder if you ever bothered to try and understand the other side's perspective, in a cold, rational, and reasoned way. I get it, the topic can be very emotional, but it's to your own advantage to understand the other side, for no greater reason than to look for holes in facts and reason, and craft arguments against them.

Since it's obvious you don't have any clue of the 1893 Diaoyu gift, or pretend it doesn't exist, here's a link to a 2012 US Congressional Research document on the dispute. I choose the US source, because it's likely the 'most neutral' between China, US, and Japan points-of-views. Relevant segment is on Page 2, under "The Competing Claims."

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Equation

Lieutenant General
Bits and pieces of President-elect Donald Trump's advisors are hitting the interview circuit, and it looks like his administration will be more hostile to China than Obama's administration. Enclosed is a video clip from Lou Dobbs' circus on Fox Financial Network, showing one of Trump's security advisors, KT McFarland talking about China "pushing the US around" in the SCS (starting from the 46-minute mark). I chuckled when I heard her, because facts show China and the US are jostling with each other, and it's not a one-sided affair. Nevertheless, if that's the attitude of President Trump's core team, then relations between the two great powers will probably not improve.


Fox News is trash, enough said.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Fox News is trash, enough said.
Most western news networks are indeed crap, but still better than Communist China "news networks." The trick isn't to place easy labels, but to- as Soviet citizens said about Pravda- read between the lines and look for the missing. In other words, what the lame stream media don't say can be louder than what they do.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Neocons just don't get it, Americans say in poll after poll they want less foreign interventions, but the Washington elites have so much contempt for us, they remain tone deaf, even after voters roared and tossed them into dumpsters. I literally laughed while reading the linked article; these people ought to do stand-up comedy.

There's an old Chinese saying one should keep power away from the ambitious, as one would sharp knives from fools. Never is that more apropos than the great Revolt of 2016, but once again, neocons missed the memo.

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Trump should put steel behind unflinching words.

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[2]

President-elect Trump must safeguard freedom of the sea forcefully and often. America’s incoming chief magistrate can start by reaching across the aisle and incorporating a passage modeled on
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[3] into his inaugural address in January. Kennedy’s bracing language can be repurposed to counter China’s challenge to the liberal maritime order on which all trading nations’ prosperity hinges.

A JFK-inspired inaugural might go something like this:

“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe,” to assure freedom of the sea. This much we pledge—and more.

To old allies, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do. Divided, there is little we can do—for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

To other seafaring peoples, we hope to welcome you into a fraternity of maritime liberty. We shall always hope to find you strongly supporting your own rights.

And we implore you to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought safety by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside. So it will be today in the China seas."

Trump should put steel behind unflinching words. Upholding freedom of the sea is about waging diplomacy toward influential audiences. What audiences? U.S. naval officialdom seems to think China’s navy is the principal audience for “freedom-of-navigation” demonstrations: a ship or plane does something that contravenes Beijing’s unlawful claims, Chinese mariners on scene see it, the point is made.

Not so. China’s navy is just a tool of Chinese statecraft. Influencing its views makes little difference. Shipborne diplomacy should mold opinion in Beijing, in allied countries such as Japan and Australia, and among vacillating friends—notably Duterte’s Philippines. Upholding freedom of the sea means discomfiting antagonists while heartening friends and allies.

To sway perceptions in America’s and liberty’s favor, the U.S. Navy must defy China’s lawlessness. It must do so regularly. And it must explain its actions—and why they matter—in the press. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it may as well not have fallen. No one hears it. Likewise, if American spokesmen don’t explain a freedom-of-navigation operation, it may as well not have happened. It will do precisely nothing to advance the cause of nautical liberty.

Let’s speak frankly, act boldly, and tell our story well.

James Holmes is Professor of Strategy at the
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[4]. He is the coauthor of
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[5].
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Try calming down your rage and passion and read my comments again. I said "I could" produce documents, and not "I did" produce them.

Frankly, the information you asked for are so easy to obtain on the Internet, I wonder if you ever bothered to try and understand the other side's perspective, in a cold, rational, and reasoned way. I get it, the topic can be very emotional, but it's to your own advantage to understand the other side, for no greater reason than to look for holes in facts and reason, and craft arguments against them.

Since it's obvious you don't have any clue of the 1893 Diaoyu gift, or pretend it doesn't exist, here's a link to a 2012 US Congressional Research document on the dispute. I choose the US source, because it's likely the 'most neutral' between China, US, and Japan points-of-views. Relevant segment is on Page 2, under "The Competing Claims."

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And where are the relevant documents to support PRC is claiming?
Within the US document in the link you have provided, it is just paraphrasing what Taiwan and PRC is claiming without ANY actual fact.
The PRC web site is the same with a lot of huff but no actual beef.
Hello, where is the BEEF?!?!
Basically it's the same as your claim no actual evidence at ALL to support what you say. No wonder PRC doesn't want to take it to ICJ, it would be laughed out of court as soon as they present it. LoL
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
And where are the relevant documents to support PRC is claiming?
Within the US document in the link you have provided, it is just paraphrasing what Taiwan and PRC is claiming without ANY actual fact.
The PRC web site is the same with a lot of huff but no actual beef.
Hello, where is the BEEF?!?!
Basically it's the same as your claim no actual evidence at ALL to support what you say. No wonder PRC doesn't want to take it to ICJ, it would be laughed out of court as soon as they present it. LoL
Calm down, SamuraiBlue, you're being too emotional, and we agreed to treat each other with civility.

You argue just to argue; the Congressional Report cited sources on Cixi's 1893 grant of Diaoyu to a court official, and if the citation is good enough for the US Congress, it's good enough for most reasonable people. Of course, you're free to continue arguing till you're blue in the face, it's your God given right, but it doesn't change the fact Diaoyu belongs to China, and it will eventually be returned to its rightful owner.

I get the sense what really pisses you off about US government researches, such as the one I linked, is they recognize China owned Diaoyu before Japan, and that fact handcuffs America's ability to be overtly un-neutral on the island's sovereignty. Well, you'll just have to deal with it, because facts are stubborn things, and they don't go away.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Calm down, SamuraiBlue, you're being too emotional, and we agreed to treat each other with civility.

You argue just to argue; the Congressional Report cited sources on Cixi's 1893 grant of Diaoyu to a court official, and if the citation is good enough for the US Congress, it's good enough for most reasonable people. Of course, you're free to continue arguing till you're blue in the face, it's your God given right, but it doesn't change the fact Diaoyu belongs to China, and it will eventually be returned to its rightful owner.

I get the sense what really pisses you off about US government researches, such as the one I linked, is they recognize China owned Diaoyu before Japan, and that fact handcuffs America's ability to be overtly un-neutral on the island's sovereignty. Well, you'll just have to deal with it, because facts are stubborn things, and they don't go away.

No what pisses me off is you having the impudent audacity to bring such meaningless brief sheet that only outlines the situation introducing each other's claim with out going into detail or supporting evidence and saying that it is enough as proof to support you claim.

Basically you have NOTHING to support your claim and still try to continue this argument and telling me that I am the one who is arguing for the sake of argument. I'll give those words right back at you.

That is what really pisses me off.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
No what pisses me off is you having the impudent audacity to bring such meaningless brief sheet that only outlines the situation introducing each other's claim with out going into detail or supporting evidence and saying that it is enough as proof to support you claim.

Basically you have NOTHING to support your claim and still try to continue this argument and telling me that I am the one who is arguing for the sake of argument. I'll give those words right back at you.

That is what really pisses me off.
I brought an official US Congress research report. If you choose to disregard that, it's your choice and you have the right to believe anything you wish. But, the truth in the Congressional report stands; US government's official position is Diaoyu Isles was managed by China before Japan. Flail around all you want, deny all you wish, but you can't change the fact all your complaints are merely excuses to not accept the truth: China owned and managed Diaoyu before Japan laid claim to it.

In the end it doesn't matter what you, I, or anyone else thinks. Not Prime Minister Abe, President Trump, or even President Xi, because there are about 1.3 billion very nationalistic Chinese that will not allow their government to let Diaoyu go. Public sentiment is for return of Diaoyu even if it means war. What about the future you ask? Maybe Japan can wait it out and let nationalism die down? I don't think that's realistic, because the younger generation in China is even more nationalistic than their fathers.

Think about it, even today Japan could do little to push China away from Diaoyu. The entire world see more and more Chinese drones, planes, and ships patrolling the island zone. Going forward, is that likely to decrease? And since America has made it abundantly clear it wants no part of the Sino-Japanese territorial dispute, Japan is out of good options. On the other hand, time is on China's side.

It's time for Japan to do the right thing and give back what it unlawfully took. The act will generate lots of goodwill, and maybe even start the long road to reconciliation and peaceful coexistence. Don't tell me that isn't important to you.
 
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