South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

Blackstone

Brigadier
But PRC does not administer Taiping island, Taiwan does.
Correct, and Taiwan is a province of China, recognized by the vast majority of the 200 countries in the UN, including such notable ones as US, India, Japan, Russia, Indonesia, UK, Germany, France, Malaysia, Brazil, and Taiwan. Yes, Taiwan's official stance is "One China."


Anyway it looks as if tit for tat is happening.

and in East China sea,,,

By the way at present oil prices those off-shore rigs must be bleeding money.
ECS and SCS words and actions are all about nations pursuing their core interests. China casts heavy footprints when it asserts "great power privileges," and it's no surprise smaller powers bobble like cork in its wake. Vietnam's rocket deployment serves three purposes, 1) PR for domestic consumption, 2) reminder to Beijing its efforts to establish Sino Monroe Doctrine wouldn't be cost-free, and 3) show Uncle Sugar Vietnam can be counted on to resist China.

Radars on ECS oil platforms might be expansive, but history show nations will pay heavy prices for sovereignty and security. From that perspective, the radars are sauce for the goose. Least we forget, prior to 2010, ECS and Diaoyu/Sankaku areas were quiet and under control.
 

joshuatree

Captain
I believe Philippines which already have overlapping EEZ with Taiwan would just negotiate with them and give a mid-finger salute towards PRC.

Kinda hard to do the mid-finger without the Philippines making itself look the fool since

1) It's official policy is the One-China policy.

2) Taiwan has always extended the offer to delimit overlapping claims. The Philippines has been the only one to flat out reject the notion.


LoL, a nation throwing a hys-fit over THAAD being deployed in SK.

Yet another nation flips out over radar that is deployed within incontestable EEZ and continental shelf boundaries. It's not even an explosive. :rolleyes:
 
Regarding the oil platform radars.
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East China Sea Oil Platform Radar: What Good Is It?
The “military” radar is not in a position to provide much military advantage.

By Steven Stashwick
August 10, 2016

Amid news last week that over 200 Chinese fishing and coast guard vessels had swarmed the waters around Japan’s disputed Senkaku islands in the East China Sea, Japan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA) disclosed new evidence of possible Chinese militarization in the disputed waters. MOFA spokesmen said that one of China’s oil platforms in the East China Sea was found to have a military grade surface radar installed on it.

The only detail MOFA offered on the radar was that it was of a type “commonly found on patrol ships and not necessary for gas field development.” This implies the radar might have some military purpose in the middle of a sea where China and Japan are locked in dispute over the extent of their respective Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZ) and thus rights to the oil and gas reserves believed to be beneath it. Japan is understandably sensitive to developments that might threaten its EEZ claims in the region and lodged a diplomatic protest with Beijing over the radar last Friday. However, from photographs MOFA provided of Chinese oil platforms in the East China Sea and a map of their rough locations, it is hard to see what military advantage the radar would provide China, or even to be sure that it is not intended for civil use.

MOFA indicated that the platform in question is referred to as the “12th Structure” in its collection of imagery and maps and that the radar was located beneath the structure’s helicopter landing pad. From the photograph, the radar appears to be a large rotating slotted-wave guide antenna typical of navigational and surface search radars used in both civil and military applications, and not something more exotic with exclusively military use. Even if the antenna is military grade of the sort found on “patrol ships,” there is substantial overlap between civil and military radars of this type; even the surface search radar on most U.S. Navy destroyers, the A/N SPS-73, was based on a commercially available Furuno antenna. In other words, this Chinese radar may be found as commonly on patrol ships as it is on large merchant vessels, and is not obviously an exclusively military radar based on the images provided.

Many oil rigs are equipped with some type of surface search radar to provide awareness of approaching vessels, danger of collision, potential security threats like pirates, and to assist with helicopter operations. Furuno markets products specifically for oil platforms that work off of its large surface search radars, similar to those used by the U.S. Navy. Even if not strictly “necessary for gas field development,” such radars are not unusual on large platforms.

However, regardless of whether Structure 12 needs the radar or not, it is still capable of providing “dual use” military utility alongside its civil application for the platform. Assuming MOFA is correct and the radar represents militarization of China’s East China Sea platforms, it could be used to provide permanent surveillance of the disputed waters. But it would probably not see much. Last year Ankit Panda explained why these platforms posed little potential military threat, and noted that “gas platform-based radar facilities for military surveillance purposes would make little sense,” because China already conducted substantial ship-borne surveillance in the East China Sea. The map and likely ranges of this radar set help show why.

Furuno’s most powerful surface search radars have a nominal range of 120 nautical miles (nm), but this is best understood to be the maximum “zoom out” that the radar can display, not its expected detection ranges. Furuno estimates that surface radars can only detect targets at ranges about 6 percent beyond the visible horizon under most conditions. Though oil platforms are much taller than most ships and therefore have a longer horizon view, this still means Structure 12’s radar can likely only detect a warship-sized vessel 30 or 40 nm away.

Given Structure 12’s position in the northern end of the Chinese gas field, it could potentially provide early warning of vessels approaching China’s East Sea Fleet bases near Shanghai, or to vessels transiting from the Japanese home islands to the disputed Senkaku Islands to the south. But even if the radar’s range was double the horizon-estimate, an 80 nm detection range still does not give the platform enough reach to really provide much help there. Because the platform’s position is fixed, vessels that China may be interested in detecting and tracking can simply avoid the radar by a safe buffer while transiting in its vicinity. Vessels sailing between the Senkakus and the home islands probably wouldn’t even need to adjust their tracks. Then again, the radar might just be to help protect China’s East China Sea platforms from wayward fishermen and merchant vessels after all.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
A nuanced view from an ex-Australian defense official.

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In a
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in 1978 Robert Jervis outlined the concept of the security dilemma. Jervis observed that ‘many of the means by which a state tries to increase its security decreases the security of others’. Where ‘one state gains invulnerability by being more powerful than most others’ its advantage ‘provides a base from which it can exploit others’.

The problem of the security dilemma in the South China Seas has several dimensions. Relative to its East and Southeast Asian neighbours, China is now very powerful and can exploit that situation to increase its own security relative to that of the US. The US, on the other hand, sees itself as invulnerable with respect to China and with the ability to leverage its invulnerability to pursue its own security and economic interests and those of its allies irrespective of China’s.

As
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noted, ‘it’s a strategic and political impossibility for China meekly to accept the Court of Arbitration’s ruling and withdraw its claim’. In part, that’s simply a matter of security policy. The US has tried to
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, especially allies hosting US forces, so for China, forward deployment of its forces and surveillance assets to the South China Sea is an obvious force posture move. This is a good example of the security dilemma in action.

There’s another element of China’s stance on the South China Sea. In his
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Xi Jinping began by observing, ‘Only by drawing lessons from history can the world avoid repeating past calamity’. Although referring to WW2, that idea has far greater resonance with the Chinese and the CCP leadership. Most pertinent for present day Chinese are
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.

National psychology is a powerful driver of China’s refusal to back down over the South China Sea. China’s history and in particular its sensitivity around the ‘century of humiliation’ suffered while they were comparatively weak
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. That notion is central to modern China’s founding narrative and to the legitimacy of the CCP leadership.

The century from 1839, when British gunboats
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, to the CCP victory in 1949 is known as the ‘century of humiliation’.
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writes that for many Chinese this period provides the ‘historical lessons that are taken as indicative of how strong Western powers tend to behave toward China’. The massive rebellions that wracked China, fanned by ‘the imperial government’s acquiescence to foreign demands’, also influences the strategic thinking of China’s leaders.

The Chinese leadership nourishes the narrative that the CCP saved China from the suffering and indignities imposed by foreign powers, and ‘this narrative has become a key legitimiser for CCP rule, because the CCP is portrayed as the only modern Chinese political party that was able to successfully stand up to foreign aggression’. Behind it all lies a ‘
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’ so deeply embedded in the Chinese psyche that it still sees itself as a victim. For China to back-down from the South China Sea strategy would be to submit again to a hegemon.

The US asserts its right to override the national interests of other nations and to shape the world seemingly irrespective of the internal preferences of other states.
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the US ‘will ensure tomorrow’s global trading system is consistent with our interests and values by seeking to establish and enforce rules’; that an ‘obligation’ lies on the US for ‘reinforcing, shaping, and where appropriate, creating the rules, norms, and institutions’. The US will be ‘strategic in the use of our economic strength to set new rules of the road’.

This language isn’t just about a rules-based international order; it espouses a unilateral right by the US to make/change the rules and assumes the authority to enforce them. The ‘exceptionalist’ view of the 2015 US National Security Strategy is evidently understood by the Chinese leadership.

In the South China Sea the security dilemma is further complicated by memories of China’s past tragic experience. It’s complicated by the role history plays in validating the Chinese leadership. In the shadow of the ‘century of humiliation’ China may be prepared to go the precipice and beyond; even in the face of preponderant US power.

Confrontation and military brinksmanship in the South China Sea is more likely to cement China in its current policy than to relieve tensions.

Unless Western nations adopt a more nuanced philosophy on global governance, and a more accommodating approach to emerging powers in Asia and Africa, that comprehends their unique historical experiences and cultural value, the decline in Western global relevance will accelerate. This isn’t to advocate appeasement or a retreat, but rather, an evolution to a primarily non-military approach that recognises the genuine complexity of international relations.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Correct, and Taiwan is a province of China, recognized by the vast majority of the 200 countries in the UN, including such notable ones as US, India, Japan, Russia, Indonesia, UK, Germany, France, Malaysia, Brazil, and Taiwan. Yes, Taiwan's official stance is "One China."
Sorry but that is your misunderstanding since most all nation only adopted the "One China Policy" which recognizes only one legitimate government in mainland China, this differs from the "One China Pinciple" in which there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan, I have not heard of any formally nation also adopting this idea.

Basically most all nations accepts that there is an independent state in Taiwan and as soon as they abolition their claim towards the mainland most nations would automatically accept Taiwan as a sovereign state.

But I think you already knew that.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Sorry but that is your misunderstanding since most all nation only adopted the "One China Policy" which recognizes only one legitimate government in mainland China, this differs from the "One China Pinciple" in which there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan, I have not heard of any formally nation also adopting this idea.

Basically most all nations accepts that there is an independent state in Taiwan and as soon as they abolition their claim towards the mainland most nations would automatically accept Taiwan as a sovereign state.

But I think you already knew that.
You're dreaming if you honestly believe many nations would officially recognize Taiwan independence, because it means creating an enemy in China for a long, long time. Not even US would recognize Taiwan independence. In any case, if Taiwan declares independence today, there will be war tomorrow, and US gets to decide if it wants WW3 or see Taiwan returned to the Mainland by brute force.

Taiwan is a province of China. Full stop. There's no independent state without China's blessing. Not today, not tomorrow, and not in the foreseeable future. I think we both know that.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Sorry but that is your misunderstanding since most all nation only adopted the "One China Policy" which recognizes only one legitimate government in mainland China, this differs from the "One China Pinciple" in which there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan, I have not heard of any formally nation also adopting this idea.

Basically most all nations accepts that there is an independent state in Taiwan and as soon as they abolition their claim towards the mainland most nations would automatically accept Taiwan as a sovereign state.

But I think you already knew that.


UN's "Final Clauses of Multilateral Treaties, Handbook"

regarding the Taiwan Province of China, the Secretary-General follows the General Assembly’s guidance incorporated in resolution 2758 (XXVI)of the General Assembly of 25 October 1971 on the restoration of the lawful rights of the People’s Republic of China in the United Nations. The General Assembly decided to recognize the representatives of the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations. Hence, instruments received from the Taiwan Province of China will not be accepted by the Secretary-General in his capacity as depositary



Treaty of Peace and Friendship between Japan and the People's Republic of China

Recalling with satisfaction that since the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China issued a
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Joint Communique in Peking on September 29, 1972

Confirming that the above-mentioned Joint Communique constitutes the basis of the relations of peace and friendship between the two countries and that the principles enunciated in the Joint Communique should be strictly observed.


Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China

2. The Government of Japan recognizes that Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal Government of China. (Didn't say mainland China)

3. The Government of the People's Republic of China reiterates that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the People's Republic of China. The Government of Japan fully understands and respects this stand of the Government of the People's Republic of China, and it firmly maintains its stand under Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation.


Potsdam Proclamation

8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.

Cairo Declaration

all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.


TOKYO HIGH COURT, JUNE 12, 1980

DESIGNATION OF THE CASE
Judgment of June 12, 1980, Tokyo High Court, case No..(gyo-ko, administrative) 27 of 1977.
Appeal from Tokyo District Court, Judgment of April 27, 1977.

APPELLANT:
Appellant: Lem King-Bing
Attorney for Appellant: Hisao Arata, et al.
APPELLEE:
Appellee: the State (Japanese Government)
Attorney for Appellee: Takashi Yoshida


It is true that, as stated above, after the acceptance of the Potsdam Proclamation, Japan had recognized Taiwan as a territory of the Republic of China which had asserted her dominion over it; but in 1972 Japan changed her stand and understood and respected that Taiwan belonged to the People's Republic of China. There is a consistency in that Japan all this time has recognized Taiwan not to belong to herself.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, this is a Strategy Page for non-Chinese Nations and the SCS.

Let's not go to the arguement/discussion/disagreements/interpretations of Treaties and Policies that do not bear on Strategies for other nations.

IOW, do not drag the PRC policy into this discussion about other nation's strategies.

It's why we had to go with two separate threads to avoid the arguments.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
UN's "Final Clauses of Multilateral Treaties, Handbook"

The United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 was passed in response to the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1668 that required any change in China's representation in the UN be determined by a two-thirds vote referring to Article 18[1] of the UN Charter. The resolution, passed on October 25, 1971, recognized the People's Republic of China (PRC) as "the only legitimate representative of China to the United Nations"

Basically within the handbook's resolution it only states which China is the legitimate holder of the seat in the UN, and does not define if Taiwan belongs to PRC or not.
Further more Taiwan was not awarded to China in the post-WWII San Francisco Peace Treaty so stating anything from Potsdam or Ciro is null and void since the San Francisco peace treaty is the final revised accumulated document that was ratified by 40 nations..


DESIGNATION OF THE CASE
Judgment of June 12, 1980, Tokyo High Court, case No..(gyo-ko, administrative) 27 of 1977.
Appeal from Tokyo District Court, Judgment of April 27, 1977.

APPELLANT:
Appellant: Lem King-Bing
Attorney for Appellant: Hisao Arata, et al.
APPELLEE:
Appellee: the State (Japanese Government)
Attorney for Appellee: Takashi Yoshida

As for Japanese court ruling, this was about a Taiwan plaintiff trying to confirm his Japanese nationality which has nothing to do with international relationship.
 

ahojunk

Senior Member
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(China Daily) 07:29, August 11, 2016

China emphasized its opposition on Wednesday to Vietnam's military deployments on islands that the country has illegally occupied in the South China Sea, following the reported deployment of rocket launchers by Vietnam on several of the Nansha Islands.

The move, which shows a further stage of Hanoi's militarization of the Nansha Islands, will have a negative impact on regional peace and stability, observers said.

Intelligence shows that Hanoi has shipped the launchers to five bases in the Nansha Islands in recent months, Reuters reported on Wednesday.

The launchers have been hidden from aerial surveillance and have yet to be armed, but could be made operational with artillery rockets within two or three days, it said.

Foreign officials and military analysts told Reuters that they believe the launchers form part of Vietnam's state-of-the-art EXTRA artillery rocket system, which was recently acquired from Israel.

"China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and their surrounding waters," the Foreign Ministry's Spokesperson's Office said in a written reply on Wednesday.

"China has always firmly opposed the illegal occupation of parts of China's Nansha Islands and reefs by certain countries and their illegal construction and military deployments on these islands and reefs," it said.

Vietnam's Foreign Ministry said the information was "inaccurate" but did not elaborate.

Vietnam has illegally occupied 29 of about 50 islands and reefs in the South China Sea.

It has conducted construction and reclamation work on more than 20 of them since the 1980s, and the scale of the reclamation has increased in the past two years.

It also has built infrastructure, including runways and barracks, on the islands and reefs.

Jia Duqiang, a senior researcher on Southeast Asian studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said it is Hanoi's latest effort to tighten its hold on islands in the South China Sea.

"By fortifying the islands with rocket launchers, Vietnam is keeping up its militarization of the region in a more aggressive way," he said.

Xu Liping, another Southeast Asian studies researcher with CASS, said Hanoi is trying to emphasize its determination to strengthen its illegal occupation of the islands.
 
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