Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

latenlazy

Brigadier
He knows the right people and they know him, so there's no doubt there. However, even the best engineers are certainly not immune from making mistakes. I'm just arguing people were being really rude about it, and he does at least have a long track record working in the industry from 1986 - at least partly on flight testing.
I don’t care who he knows. No serious credible engineer worth their salt would make sweeping conclusions off such limited and incidental observations, especially without any rigorous empirical data. If I acted this way in an engineering review meeting my seniors would laugh me out of the room. The very fact that someone who claims to be an engineer is willing to make such sweeping conclusions off such limited observations makes his judgment suspect. He can be bestie butt buddies with the guys who designed the YF-23 and that still doesn’t mean his eyeball assertions have credibility beyond their analytical substance. Having a title doesn’t give you a divinely gifted magic wand to know things without the analytical work. That’s the whole f’ing point of learning the work in the first place.
 
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Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Its not my argument. I did enough of my Aero Eng degree (1.5 years then left, did 2 English degrees and work in IT) to know I can't judge whether he has a point or not. I'd wager the same goes for 95% of the people here.

Arguing he must be wrong because Shenyang engineers are infallible seems... overly patriotic.
Good that you recognize that there’s still the 5% that can judge, because from a basic aerodynamic point of view turning the AMW will give you roll authority as long as there’s flow passing it, period. What else it gives you and how it messes with the overall aerodynamic properties is a whole other story, but having what is essentially a section of the wing at a different AoA will just inherently create momentum.

From your quotes the guy’s point seems to be “because the AMWs are flapping that must mean it has little authority” which doesn’t make sense because he’s making an observation of the final action and oversimplifying the process behind the action when reversing out its cause (no consideration for things like transient flow behavior during a turn, FCS doing weird shit for compensation, possibility of pilot deliberately testing the handling, etc).

No disrespect to people in the industry, but everybody eventually get boxed into their own little niche of specialized skills and knowledge, and this particular engineer’s insight on the behavior of a foreign aircraft based on a 10s video clip could very well have the same credibility as someone playing war thunder.

edit: went and checked the original post on SPF, turns out the guy’s just making a guess instead of trying aggressively to prove he’s totally right and anyone disagreeing doesn’t know their flaps from their slats.
 
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enroger

Senior Member
Registered Member
Its not my argument. I did enough of my Aero Eng degree (1.5 years then left, did 2 English degrees and work in IT) to know I can't judge whether he has a point or not. I'd wager the same goes for 95% of the people here.

Arguing he must be wrong because Shenyang engineers are infallible seems... overly patriotic.

You don't need to wager, surely you can explain his arguments or at least copy his comments for us to judge can't you?

Instead here you are defending some internet persona like a 12 year old fangirl
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
You don't need to wager, surely you can explain his arguments or at least copy his comments for us to judge can't you?

Instead here you are defending some internet persona like a 12 year old fangirl
Once he’s out in the workforce and done real work as an engineer maybe he’ll come to appreciate how unserious a “I have x amount of experience so I can tell with my eyeballs” claim is for any engineer with any modicum of professional pride. Without access to the systematic analysis any incidental observation is *conjectural* and anyone trying to sell you a story beyond that claiming to be a veteran engineer either doesn’t respect your intelligence, doesn’t respect his own profession, or isn’t who they claim to be.
 

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Once he’s out in the workforce and done real work as an engineer maybe he’ll come to appreciate how unserious a “I have x amount of experience so I can tell with my eyeballs” claim is for any engineer with any modicum of professional pride.
last time I fell for this was during my capstone project, resulting in a hole in the wind tunnel lab ceiling.

Never again lmao
 

secretprojects

New Member
Registered Member
You don't need to wager, surely you can explain his arguments or at least copy his comments for us to judge can't you?

Instead here you are defending some internet persona like a 12 year old fangirl
The post in question is here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Feel free to contribute if you have something to say. Nx4eu already replied with his view.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
F-117 needed a bigger tail after the prototype flew. Did the Lockheed engineers not know what they were doing? What about the control surface changes from FC-31 #1 to #2 to different F-35 prototypes? Did the engineers at Shenyang not know what they were doing?

As much as you simulate and test, sometimes you have to revise a design in light of flight testing. Sometimes shit happens.

Equally, maybe an apparently odd pattern of movement is a software bug, or even a deliberate test. Its in very early stages of flight test.
We'll see once in for all when someone spots the second prototype and see if there are any changes regarding control surfaces, which in theory shouldn't be that far away assuming J-XDS is in the same phase of development as J-36.
 

enroger

Senior Member
Registered Member
The post in question is here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Feel free to contribute if you have something to say. Nx4eu already replied with his view.

If you meant this guy:
From the videos, the Tiperons do not look very effective, surfaces just alternating from left to right with no real authority, other comments please, they may have to be larger in order to be effective?

Tiperons rapid movements is precisely intended to keep the plane stable, without them the plane would've crashed already. The person mistakenly equate the lack of movements of the plane to lack of authority of control surfaces. Indeed the authority could be great but they rapidly alternate to cancel out the yaw moment to keep the plane flying straight.

What you can argue is maybe the control laws are being over-correcting or underdamped. Think of it like trying to keep an inverted pendulum upright, if you're good at it you only need very small input to keep it upright, if you're bad at it you're gonna overcorrect a lot.

I believe they're still in the process of refining their control law so this is not all that surprising
 
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