Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

timepass said:

Great News, now after J10Bs PAF gona have J31s. Desperate to know the numbers, though.

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Hmmm, while it is certainly a good news, I am kind of less enthusiastic about it at this stage, and still think it is far too early for any certainty. The J-10 deal has been in the talks for years now, and had also been reported as "past initial enquiry stage" a long long time ago. The JF-17 programme is in full swing, and I still think PAF is more interested in the JF-17 replacing many of the legacy equipments than new more expensive fighters; and currently they seemed to be quite satisfied with JF-17.

On the other hand, I guess if costs are reasonable, FC-31 actually offer a better option than J-10. First of all, capability increase from JF-17 to J-10 won't be that dramatic, and the Pakistani F-16s still has some service life in them---if they get J-10s, then they will be used in the same roles as their F-16s. Secondly, J-10 uses a different engine family to JF-17, whereas it is clear from the beginning that the FC-31 engine is going to keep to the same lineage. Thirdly, by the time J-10 is going to enter PAF service, IF indeed it does, then we will be looking at at least 2018 or 2020 mark, but if they had instead gone with the FC-31 program and participated in---what is, still the early stages of---its designing and testing process, by the same time frame, the FC-31 would have more than likely matured and customed to their needs. Also note that J-20 is ear-marked by the PLAAF to enter service in initial batches at around about the same time frame, which means all of the subcomponents of the Chinese 5-th gen fighter program should have more or less be completed and become available around that time mark too. The Pakistani FC-31 would certainly benefit from those, and make the success of the FC-31 program look rather more likely.

I have a feeling that SAC may be willing to offer a full tech transfer and a joint production project for the FC-31 with Pakistan, and that would be the main selling point. However, given the complexity of FC-31 compared to JF-17, it may still be years down the line that tech transfer and local production may become a real possibility, especially taking into account of the political instability and economic situation Pakistan is facing at the moment. And that is where my doubts on the deal lay.

Therefore, I hold a "let's wait and see" attitude, with a hint of cautious optimism.

timepass said:

Great News, now after J10Bs PAF gona have J31s. Desperate to know the numbers, though.

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initially the talks are about 30-40 examples of FC-31

delft said:

The issue might be that the air brake is not needed and it is nice to avoid the weight and the manufacturing and maintenance effort it needs.

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That is something that we really should recognize, the air brake is typically only used on approach, as it provides enough drag to allow the pilot to keep the turbine "spooled up" and making heat and power, a go around is to simply advance the power levers and retract the brake. One of the main reasons the F-18 has a very effective brake, is to manage the glide path down the glide slope to trap on the carrier, the F-35 accomplishes much of this glide path management with a very smart FCS the raises and lowers flap rapidly to manage lift, one of the many high praises the test pilots who performed the initial carrier quals with the C lauded. Staying on the meatball is much easier in the F-35C, and that is automated and part of the autopilot, freeing the pilot up to manage other aspects of the approach.

There are times when some "contingency" might make the airbrake deployment necessary or desirable, typically if you run into aircraft stability problems, you might lower the gear and flaps to add drag and stabilize the aircraft, a well designed airbrake can add to that drag and stability. It may also be used when you need to make a steeper than normal approach, to keep the power levers advanced to keep engine temps up, one thing that folks may not realize is that turbines respond very poorly to "super cooling", a large power reduction back to "flight idle" can warp turbine rotors, etc, by "super cooling" them.

Master Delfts point, that the Airbrake adds weight and structure is well taken, because not only must the brake itself be very robust, but the surrounding and supporting structure as well, in fact the brake takes away the "continuity" off the forward or aft fuselage, and may compromise the integrity of that structure as well. Then you have maintenance and fluids, so yes it adds additional weight and complexity??

Interesting comparison ...

Deino said:

Interesting comparison ...

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Ok, I'll be the first to take the bait, the FC-31 is very likely to be the pre prototype tech demonstrator, where the J-31 is a very basic tech demonstrator, on the basis of these two pictures, this is the reason there is only ONE J-31, (yeah, I know, they'll roll out three more this week), but hey, I'm the Air Force Brat, I can afford to take risks???? The FC-31 will "eclipse" the J-31, if they bring it to pre-production in this configuration, and no doubt give the J-20 reason to be looking over its shoulder.... Now, no-body has linked the video that showed the J-31 supposedly doing two rolls at Zuhai, but as the Brat did predict, Zuhai was a bold move, and I believe that Pakistan in now "hooked" as I would be too, but I still have dibs on that first J-31, just load it in the back of that C-17, and put it on my tab?

Funny, but until you posted these two side by side, I did not realize what a "radical" departure FC-31 is from J-31, the FC-31 is the Chinese Raptor, and please take that as the "ultimate compliment" it is meant to be,,,,, I hope our next fighter is not a true 6th gen as that would be "overkill", but a 5.5 Super Raptor, the FC-31 has gone to "super model" looks and performance, she will be a winner, and the PLA will have to take notice, as well they should!

Oh and lots and lots of that Super Duper Sneaky Carbon Fibre on this bird, it will be light, and it will be slik!

Air Force Brat said:

Ok, I'll be the first to take the bait, the FC-31 is very likely to be the pre prototype tech demonstrator, where the J-31 is a very basic tech demonstrator, on the basis of these two pictures, this is the reason there is only ONE J-31, (yeah, I know, they'll roll out three more this week), but hey, I'm the Air Force Brat, I can afford to take risks???? The FC-31 will "eclipse" the J-31, if they bring it to pre-production in this configuration, and no doubt give the J-20 reason to be looking over its shoulder.... Now, no-body has linked the video that showed the J-31 supposedly doing two rolls at Zuhai, but as the Brat did predict, Zuhai was a bold move, and I believe that Pakistan in now "hooked" as I would be too, but I still have dibs on that first J-31, just load it in the back of that C-17, and put it on my tab?

Funny, but until you posted these two side by side, I did not realize what a "radical" departure FC-31 is from J-31, the FC-31 is the Chinese Raptor, and please take that as the "ultimate compliment" it is meant to be,,,,, I hope our next fighter is not a true 6th gen as that would be "overkill", but a 5.5 Super Raptor, the FC-31 has gone to "super model" looks and performance, she will be a winner, and the PLA will have to take notice, as well they should!

Oh and lots and lots of that Super Duper Sneaky Carbon Fibre on this bird, it will be light, and it will be slik!

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Speaking of 6th generation, the difference between it and 5th could be more like the 3rd and 4th generation fighters.

Who else besides us (the U.S.), China and Russia are looking at 6th generation tech now?

Player99 said:

Umm... So you're a HAL and IAF insider?

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Never claimed. Only claiming that other people claiming they are insiders is plain wrong. Reference to the media reports.

Player99 said:

So... you are also an AVIC insider? ...that you know more about AVIC culture than me, a Chinese follower (loose though) of the AVIC affair?

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You misunderstood. I was referring to the guy who mentioned that parallel evolution and uni-whatever evolution. Not you.

Skywatcher said:

Who else besides us (the U.S.), China and Russia are looking at 6th generation tech now?

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Britain, France and India.

Air Force Brat said:

Ok, I'll be the first to take the bait, the FC-31 is very likely to be the pre prototype tech demonstrator, where the J-31 is a very basic tech demonstrator, on the basis of these two pictures, this is the reason there is only ONE J-31, (yeah, I know, they'll roll out three more this week), but hey, I'm the Air Force Brat, I can afford to take risks???? The FC-31 will "eclipse" the J-31, if they bring it to pre-production in this configuration, and no doubt give the J-20 reason to be looking over its shoulder.... Now, no-body has linked the video that showed the J-31 supposedly doing two rolls at Zuhai, but as the Brat did predict, Zuhai was a bold move, and I believe that Pakistan in now "hooked" as I would be too, but I still have dibs on that first J-31, just load it in the back of that C-17, and put it on my tab?

Funny, but until you posted these two side by side, I did not realize what a "radical" departure FC-31 is from J-31, the FC-31 is the Chinese Raptor, and please take that as the "ultimate compliment" it is meant to be,,,,, I hope our next fighter is not a true 6th gen as that would be "overkill", but a 5.5 Super Raptor, the FC-31 has gone to "super model" looks and performance, she will be a winner, and the PLA will have to take notice, as well they should!

Oh and lots and lots of that Super Duper Sneaky Carbon Fibre on this bird, it will be light, and it will be slik!

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What is the definition of a 6th gen fighter? I thought a 6th gen fighter is a combination of a 5th gen fighter plus a UAV...

vesicles said:

What is the definition of a 6th gen fighter? I thought a 6th gen fighter is a combination of a 5th gen fighter plus a UAV...

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Unless a new propulsion system is invented, like a dual-mode RAMJET and turbofan combination. But I guess we are going to be entirely off topic to talk about this.