SDF Aerospace and Aerodynamics Corner

Engineer

Major
yes you only use fallacies, it is obvious

You are confusing yourself with me. What you have displayed here is a classic case of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, because you are denying your own faulty attributes and ascribing them to me. Just because you use fallacies to divert attention away from facts, that doesn't mean everyone else uses fallacies in their arguments. :rolleyes:

here they show why your reasoning is a fallacy,

It is obvious that you have no idea what constitute as a fallacy. Fallacy refers to improper reasonings used in an argument, such as when you were
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where you intentionally remove materials from citations, and when you employ
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where you invent false statements then claim I made them.

So you see, I can point out exactly what type of fallacies you are employing and why, whereas you are still unable to point out an example of fallacy in my statements. This is because you only argue with emotion and fallacies, and you do not understand what proper reasoning is. :rolleyes:


they say the engine will increase spillage on an off design operation

Off-design condition refers to the case where the inlet is not operating at the maximum speed it is designed for, where oblique shocks do not impinge on the intake lips. This occurs on fixed-inlet as well as shown in the diagram below, and does not require variable-geometry.
TdLHZ.png


The spillage is result from the change shock geometry, and is independent from throat size. This is because the equation of spillage does not involve on throat area At, and is explained in the following diagram:
Ac31E.jpg


This is collaborated in another source:
qdqLb.png




Your own source mentioned "the engine is the boss", meaning the engine causes mass flow to change regardless of throat size.

When throat size is large, your claim depends on the assumption that mass flow remains large and cannot be made any smaller. This assumption is false however, because pressure inside the inlet builds up and pushes the normal shock forward. When the shock is expelled out of the inlet, the gap formed between the shock and the inlet lip allows air to escape, reducing mass flow.

When the opposite happens, where the throat is narrowed, your assumption expects the mass flow to decrease and cannot increase any further. This assumption is also false because the normal shock is drawn deeper into the inlet, resulting in supercritical condition thus maintaining the mass flow.

The above situations are explained here:
p96HV.png


Thus, the complete opposite occurs when we look at your assumptions, meaning there is no connection between throat area and mass flow. Therefore, your claim that variation of throat size being used to control mass flow is incorrect.

Check they say increase by saying create larger, but of course your answer are typical fallacies, since you did not want to admit the fact For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry
the rest are your usual fallacies but i see you can not understand english well, larger throat for larger air mass go thesaurus

Change in throat size and change in mass flow occurring together does not automatically means throat size is for controlling mass flow. Pointing out A and B happen together and claim A controls B is called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, because
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which is the fallacy in your above statement.

Ramps are used to control shock geometries, and at subsonic speed no shock can be created hence the ramps collapsed at subsonic speed. Once the aircraft goes supersonic, the ramp moves downward to create oblique shocks, and the resulting throat creates the normal shock. This is called creating a throat when it is needed, and putting it away when it is not, which is not controlling mass flow rate as you have claimed.

The difference in mass flow between subsonic and supersonic speed is accounted for with bypass, as explained in multiple sources. For example, in regard to F-14's inlets one of your very own sources say the following:
EmxOh.png


In another source which you use, it is mentioned that the excess air must be handled by bypass:
oMP3o.png




this a good example of selective memory during the act of fallacy creation by you in few words blunt lying because this graph shows a smaller throat and an increased ramp angle.

Wrong. This is a good example of you getting caught in the act of putting words that the author hasn't used in a citation. In other words, you are creating fictional statements, which is an act of lying.

Your citation points out that it is shock geometry, rather than throat area, which determines spillage and the mass flow ratio. And we know throat area has nothing to do with mass flow ratio because throat area As is not part of the ratio:
qdqLb.png



of course i do not post fixed geometry intakes like you do in your fallacies but variable geometry intakes

5917d1325380966-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake.jpg

Wrong, I do not post fixed geometry intakes as you claimed because unlike you, I employ facts and logic, not fallacies in my argument. Observe the following diagram for a fixed-geometry inlet:
TdLHZ.png


The spillage result from off-design condition occurs in fixed-geometry inlet, with no involvement of variable geometry. Hence, this spillage is not due to change in throat area. In fact, variation in throat area cannot cause change in flow upstream, because the signal of that action propagates at the speed-of-sound (as air backs up due to decrease in inlet diameter), while the flow ahead of the inlet is supersonic. In kiddies' term, the air inside the inlet cannot warn the air outside to move out of the way. This means that change in throat area does not result in spillage upstream.

as such this is logic
6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg

No where in that article does it say that variation of throat controls the mass flow. Once again, you are employing
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where the premise you use does not connect with the claim that you made.

What your own article says is that spillage is unacceptable, because maximum performance has already been attained with the oblique shocks impinging onto the cowl lip as shown in the diagram. Your article then go on to say that spill vent is used to expel the excess flow back out of the inlet. Once again, the bypass system at work for reducing mass flow, and no reference is made to the throat area for this purpose. This is logic.
 
Last edited:

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
You are confusing yourself with me. .

you write pure fallacies

For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


this even if you deny it is true.

but will you admit it?
no you won`t

Will you pass a test in an university saying that this is not true? To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


no you won`t

will you continue saying fallacies?
yes you will

what shall i do?

simple. stop replying unless some new topic appears

what will you do after this reply?

Simple you will say you are right and i am wrong.

Do i need to worry?

No i do not.

why?

i have posted all the evidence for other readers.

am i wrong?


no i am not why?

For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


and this is true for those who look for the true, for you is beyond your english skills since you love fallacies you will deny it.

So in order to do not waste more pages with you that at this moment you are acting like a troll, let us leave you in your own lies, let us leave you claiming victory, let us leave you denying the article and let us leave you thinking you are an expert.

the reality is variable geoemetry control the throat and mass flow and this is the proof
fore spillage is using the throat and ramps thus reducing the mass flow and increasing spillage, after spillage is using bypass doors, the ramps reduce the mass flow ratio, increasing spillage and reducing the air than enters the intake

6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg


See you good luck
 
Last edited:

Engineer

Major
you write pure fallacies

Once again, an empty accusation with no example to back it up. Fallacy refers to improper reasoning employed in an argument. As an example, you assume variation in throat area and mass flow occurring together to automatically means the former controls the latter, that's a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

See what I did above? I cite an example of you employing fallacy and named the type of fallacy. You are unable to do that, because you argue with emotion and fallacies. You do not know what constitutes as a proper argument. This is why other people on the forum find you to be unreasonable.

For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


this even if you deny it is true.

but will you admit it?
no you won`t

It has already been established that the variation of throat area is due to expansion and contraction of intake ramps, and this has to do with the control of shock waves. So, throat area is smaller at supersonic speed than at subsonic speed, which is true. At no time did I deny this occurs, so your invention of such false position is a fallacy called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

It is also true that the amount of flow at supersonic cruise is lower than subsonic cruise. At no time did I deny this occurs, so your claim that I did is another strawman argument. The cause of the reduced amount in flow has already been established as bypass and spillage. I have even backed this up with the same sources that you cited:
XJx43.png

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


It is collaborated with another source:
oMP3o.png


However,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and just because the two events occur together that does not mean one is in control of another. Your inability do understand this is due to the hindrance by your own fallacies.


Will you pass a test in an university saying that this is not true? To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


no you won`t

will you continue saying fallacies?
yes you will

Once again, a fallacy called strawman argument. It is also a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

First, at no time did I deny that airflow is larger at subsonic speed than at supersonic speed. I also did not deny that throat area is smaller at cruise than at subsonic condition. Your claim that I denied what is said in the citation is a position manufactured entirely by you, making your statement above a strawman argument thus a fallacy.

Secondly, your assumption that I deny what is said in the citation because I disagree with you is a fallacy of false cause, because the two events are unrelated. This is a fallacy which you use repeatedly, because you do not use logic and cannot grasp the concept that correlation does not imply causation.

Variation in throat area and variation in mass flow occurring together does not make one in control of another. Your claim assumes that when throat size is reduced, it limits air flow, meaning mass flow cannot be increased. However, multiple sources point out mass flow can still be increased because the normal shock simply shifts downstream into the diffuser to seek a larger area for the correct mass flow. This is said here:
FNY6v.png

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Collaborated by another source here:
0RJeO.png


So, all variable throat does is shift the normal shock up and down the diffuser. For maximum efficiency, the shock has to be positioned right at the throat, and the size of the throat is matched to area of the normal shock. Since area of normal shock determines the mass flow, this is what they mean by matching the throat size the mass flow. It is not a method of controlling the mass flow.

what shall i do?




simple. stop replying unless some new topic appears

what will you do after this reply?

Simple you will say you are right and i am wrong.

Do i need to worry?

No i do not.

why?

i have posted all the evidence for other readers.

am i wrong?


no i am not why?

For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry


and this is true for those who look for the true, for you is beyond your english skills since you love fallacies you will deny it.

Again, you are using fallacy of false cause because the citation above which you use as your premise does not connect with your claim. Attacking my English skills because of your inability to comprehend the subject and claiming facts I presented are fallacies are nothing more than
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, where you are ascribing your own faulty attributes onto me.

We know you are wrong because your own sources already showed:
  • Mass flow is not determined by throat size, and can decrease because of subcritical condition, or increase because of supercritical condition. One source that explains this is here:
    p96HV.png


    This is collaborated by another source:
    0fVyi.png

  • Mass flow ratio and spillage are not determined by throat size, because their equation does not incorporate throat area as a parameter.
    Ac31E.jpg

    qdqLb.png



So in order to do not waste more pages with you that at this moment you are acting like a troll, let us leave you in your own lies, let us leave you claiming victory, let us leave you denying the article and let us leave you thinking you are an expert.

the reality is variable geoemetry control the throat and mass flow and this is the proof

6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg


See you good luck

The reality is that, just like your other citations, the citation you use above doesn't prove your claim.

First, the spillage explained here is due to position of oblique shocks. Air backs up at the speed-of-sound when it encounters the throat, but the air flow ahead of the shock is supersonic, meaning the signal of whatever is happening at the throat cannot make it out of the inlet. The spillage therefore is not caused by the back up of the air, meaning it has nothing to do with the throat area. Your inability to understand this is due to your flawed water-in-a-sink analogy.

Secondly, the oblique shocks are created by the intake ramp, not the throat. Spillage occurring behind oblique shocks is due to off-design condition that the inlet is operating in, and can occur on fixed-geometry inlet as the next diagram shows. The shock and spillage are not dependent on throat area.
TdLHZ.png


The equation for spillage also shows it has nothing to do with throat area, as variable At does not appear in the final ratio:
Ac31E.jpg


Thirdly, when the throat area is already sized to allow the normal shock to be positioned at the throat for maximum efficiency, it isn't possible to vary the ramps to control the spillage as it would affect the throat area, displacing the normal shock, thus reducing efficiency. This is explained in the highlighted portion of your citation:
zYkvk.png


Thus, bypass has to be included. Whereas the variable-geometry is tasked with the positioning of shocks for optimal performance, the bypass is tasked with the control of mass flow. This is why fixed-geometry inlet is fine with just bypass, and variable-geometry inlet must include one.

Finally, just because your fallacies do not work on me, that doesn't make me a troll. If there is an evidence of a troll, then it comes from your post history showing you have an axe to grind with the J-20. Every feature on that aircraft is turned into a disadvantage when it comes out of your mouth. That's why we are arguing about inlet here. That is why you signed up on this board in the first place. Stop
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
your own intention onto me.
 
Last edited:
Top