Sad ending of a great empire

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Every polling station has no voters standing outside this should be illegal!!

None of the yes voters are standing outside the polling stations they do rally's in city centres whereas the no voters are catching all the undecided voters as they walk into the polling stations such a cheap tactics Westminster is paying people to do no vote rally's whereas yes voters are all volunteers

I think this referendum is unfair thus far SNP are doing this for the first time they don't really know how to play dirty politics game like labour backed no voters do

Anyway the yes voters are so happy but the no voters grumpy!

Stay tunned for more updates

I must admit I have not read anything military related in a week been so busy campaigning lol
 

delft

Brigadier
Ambassador Bhadrakumar with strong words on this matter:
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Last sunrise for the UK?
By M K Bhadrakumar

The sun may never again rise on the United Kingdom after this weekend. By the "breakfast time" on Friday the outcome of the closely-fought referendum in Scotland will be known. It's a toss up. Did the last-minute intervention by the Queen make a difference to tilt the delicate balance in favor of "No" to Scottish people's demand for independence?

In sheer intellectual terms it's breathtaking that this could be, after all, a velvet divorce. So much of ancient and bloody enmities existed between England and Scotland through centuries and yet the parting is by mutual consent. Of course, the unfinished business will remain bitter and not easily put behind.

Most certainly, this is not how things ended in history in most
Last sunrise for the UK?
By M K Bhadrakumar

The sun may never again rise on the United Kingdom after this weekend. By the "breakfast time" on Friday the outcome of the closely-fought referendum in Scotland will be known. It's a toss up. Did the last-minute intervention by the Queen make a difference to tilt the delicate balance in favor of "No" to Scottish people's demand for independence?

In sheer intellectual terms it's breathtaking that this could be, after all, a velvet divorce. So much of ancient and bloody enmities existed between England and Scotland through centuries and yet the parting is by mutual consent. Of course, the unfinished business will remain bitter and not easily put behind.

Most certainly, this is not how things ended in history in most parts of the world. The civilian death toll in the former East Pakistan in 1971 was anywhere between 3 lakhs and 3 million.

All the countries in our region face the challenge of political separatism. Some are acute challenges and some keep simmering, while some others simply slithered into the undergrowth and may not be quite visible to the naked eye - until they reappear.

India remains in the danger zone, and wisdom, patience and tolerance and sensitivity is needed - especially on the part of our boorish and crass political class. Our pundits point finger at Jaffna, Baluchistan or Tibet but refuse to look within - or pretend they have not noticed.

Vast regions in our country feel alienation but are literally held under the thumb with brutal state coercion. Try and see what happens if we remove the army deployments in the north-east regions - you'll hear the pressure cooker whistle as far away as Thiruvananthapuram in the deep South.

Watching our comical television coverage of Chinese President Xi Jinping's arrival yesterday, it occured to me what mixed thoughts would have crossed Prime Minister Narendra Modi's mind if he had been in Xi's shoes had there been a demonstration by a bunch of Nagas or Bodos or Kashmiris in front of the Indian embassy in Kathmandu on the day he arrived in Nepal last month.

Of course, we may say there is no analogy because we've "democracy". But then, isn't Britain the mother of all democracies? Let me recite a line from my favorite book, Markings, Dag Hammarskjold's dramatic account of his spiritual struggle - "The more faithfully you listen to the voice within you, the better you will hear what is sounding outside. And only he who listens can speak."

What Scotland underscores is that nationalism and sub-nationalism has strange ways and it is not economic development (or deprivation) that lies at the root of political alienation - at least, that is not the only underlying factor or even the main factor.

Cultural identity, political discrimination (real or perceived), language and ethnicity, religion, and the sheer exuberance of living one's own way - all these matter in varying degrees and in the crucible where contemporary experiences mix with the residues of history, strange amalgams form.

Clearly, with a 5 million population, Scotland may not even be economically viable, but that doesn't seem to worry the people who are seeking independence.

The break-up of Britain will send tremors across Europe and globally. If Scotland moves out, Wales may follow. The opinion in the rump will heavily favor moving out of the European Union. Now, an EU without Britain has profound implications.

Germany's ascendancy or "assertiveness" is already being discussed openly. Clearly, German will move still closer to Russia and the EU may itself take a different form. Again, the trans-Atlantic partnership between the US and its European allies cannot remain the same. Britain played a key role as Washington's "branch manager" in Europe.

There have been ups and downs in the US-UK relationship, and there have been times when the poodle led the bumbling master through blind alleys, but Britain is ultimately irreplaceable in America's global strategies. It's unthinkable that the US agenda on NATO's expansion can go ahead without Britain's active role. Equally, without the Anglo-American axis, a New Cold War can never start in Europe. Poland or Lithuania simply cannot replace Britain.

Finally, who will take Britain's place in the United Nations Security Council? Ironically, the UN reform agenda gets a new dynamic (and urgency) if Britain "drops out". Suffice to say, the implications are serious for a variety of theatres in regional and global politics today - Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iran, Hong Kong, Australia and so on.

However, Britain's demise will not be universally mourned. Britain is fairly widely loathed across continents for its brutal colonial record, for its slyness or deviousness (couched in irritating self-righteousness), for its preachy character (despite its scant regard for morality), for its panache to punch above its weight (from under American wings, of course) and for the sheer zest with which it explodes into violent acts against alien peoples who did no harm to it directly or directly.

There is deep irony here, from the South Asian point of view. The Partition is visiting Britain 67 years after Britain summarily imposed it on the Indian sub-continent. History's revenge? But Britain may still get away paying only a fragment of the price that India paid - and is still paying - for the Caesarian operation it conducted on the subcontinent without even administering anaesthesia.

I can't help brooding for the rest of today and until tomorrow "breakfast time": What a way an empire on which the sun never set may finally cease to exist. The Ottoman Empire was the last one to vanish into thin air. Britain played a magical role then. Oh, the ephemeral nature of all "power" - the way it finally ends! Sound and fury signifying nothing …

Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar served as a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service for over 29 years, with postings including India's ambassador to Uzbekistan (1995-1998) and to Turkey (1998-2001).

(Copyright 2014 M K Bhadrakumar)
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Seems like everyone has something to say on the matter

The only people who will decide the outcome are the Scottish people
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I don't know why I'm reading all these stories of how China feels about this. I don't know why Beijing even injects its opinion unless it's all spin from the media. A lot of the stories claim China doesn't want Scottish independence simply because of domestic implications. That's stretching it since there's no democracy in China nor in the history of the minorities groups for that to happen. These days you see a lot of stories that have nothing to do with China and somehow it's spun to involve China, i.e. ISIS in Iraq and now some how the Ebola crisis in Africa is China's problem. All I can think of is this is just deflecting away from how imperfect they are when all we hear is how they're the better alternative.

Maybe, but could also be a measure of China's increasing power around the world that people are starting to wonder and care what China may feel and think, because if China cares enough about something, it now has the means to affect the outcome of far away events to suit Chinese interests.

Take Scotish independence, if China really wanted to screw with the UK, a single announcement from its foreign ministry could easily have swung the vote overwhelmingly in the 'yes' camps favour if China even hinted that it would be willing to lend its economic might to help the newly independent Scots.

Scotland has oil and gas, China needs oil and gas. Scotish wool, whiskey and salmon would also go down well with Chinese consumers if the rest of the UK and EU wants to play games with import duties and tariffs. London doesn't want the Scots to share the pound? Maybe Beijing will decent to let the Scots share the Yuan instead.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Photos from the Scottish vote today from different newspapers:
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How would Mel Gibson vote on this?
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I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

joshuatree

Captain
Maybe, but could also be a measure of China's increasing power around the world that people are starting to wonder and care what China may feel and think, because if China cares enough about something, it now has the means to affect the outcome of far away events to suit Chinese interests.

Take Scotish independence, if China really wanted to screw with the UK, a single announcement from its foreign ministry could easily have swung the vote overwhelmingly in the 'yes' camps favour if China even hinted that it would be willing to lend its economic might to help the newly independent Scots.

Scotland has oil and gas, China needs oil and gas. Scotish wool, whiskey and salmon would also go down well with Chinese consumers if the rest of the UK and EU wants to play games with import duties and tariffs. London doesn't want the Scots to share the pound? Maybe Beijing will decent to let the Scots share the Yuan instead.


Double edge sword. I think China wouldn't mind seeing the end of UK, a bit of karma for past colonial travesties which other nations also may share the sentiment. However, the notion of letting a portion of a current country vote to stay or secede is anathema to China. It would be the same to countries like Spain and Japan. So China would do best in refraining on any comments.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Maybe, but could also be a measure of China's increasing power around the world that people are starting to wonder and care what China may feel and think, because if China cares enough about something, it now has the means to affect the outcome of far away events to suit Chinese interests.

Take Scotish independence, if China really wanted to screw with the UK, a single announcement from its foreign ministry could easily have swung the vote overwhelmingly in the 'yes' camps favour if China even hinted that it would be willing to lend its economic might to help the newly independent Scots.

Scotland has oil and gas, China needs oil and gas. Scotish wool, whiskey and salmon would also go down well with Chinese consumers if the rest of the UK and EU wants to play games with import duties and tariffs. London doesn't want the Scots to share the pound? Maybe Beijing will decent to let the Scots share the Yuan instead.

Something like independence is where people don't like hearing what outsiders have to say because they see that as interference. Especially since as they say China is against Scottish independence. If anything China publicly declaring it would encourage independence. After all that was supposedly said was how it would diminish Great Britain not Scotland. Why would pro-independence care?

Two things could be happening... China is sort of arrogant to think they have an influence especially when their take is how it will diminish Great Britain. Or they're playing some Sun Tzu tactic and they know full well a pro-Great Britain stance will help the pro-independence movement. It's mostly like the first scenario given Beijing doesn't like anyone making waves unless backed into a corner.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Something like independence is where people don't like hearing what outsiders have to say because they see that as interference. Especially since as they say China is against Scottish independence. If anything China publicly declaring it would encourage independence. After all that was supposedly said was how it would diminish Great Britain not Scotland. Why would pro-independence care?

Two things could be happening... China is sort of arrogant to think they have an influence especially when their take is how it will diminish Great Britain. Or they're playing some Sun Tzu tactic and they know full well a pro-Great Britain stance will help the pro-independence movement. It's mostly like the first scenario given Beijing doesn't like anyone making waves unless backed into a corner.

I think Li Keqiang's statement are spoken with the domestic audience in mind. Anything less than full support for the union would give ammunition to the Uighur and Tibetan separatism movements.

If you read his statement, he emphasized that continued union would keep the UK strong and prosperous. That resonates far more with Chinese than with the Brits.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I think Li Keqiang's statement are spoken with the domestic audience in mind. Anything less than full support for the union would give ammunition to the Uighur and Tibetan separatism movements.

If you read his statement, he emphasized that continued union would keep the UK strong and prosperous. That resonates far more with Chinese than with the Brits.

That's what I thought because it was odd given China's non-interference policy to be outspoken like the media has been reporting it. Like I said before the media lately has been spinning bad news for the West as something bad for China like ISIS and now Ebola. And using the independence vote in Scotland just to say something about domestic tension in China can only be distraction. Western countries seems to be against Scottish independence so why would the media bring up China when that would more likely encourage independence than not? Because it's just their nature now to spin anything bad for the West to be bad for China.
 

Bernard

Junior Member
Just got a notification on my phone from cnn saying that polls closed in Scotland and votes will be counted and are expected in the next few hours!
 
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