Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Air Force Brat]

Really amazing how theyve managed to build such a thin frame actually. On other 5th gens, the space between the intakes would have been where the bays would have been located. What they've got means the entire fighter pulling hard, only has a thin piece of space to build the frame around where bending moments are probably very if not most significant along the fuselage.

ougoah, have you seen any skeletonized drawings of the Su-57?? It is a beautiful airframe, and you are right, without the space available to build a larger internal superstructure, you may have localized high stress area's such as we've seen crop up on the upper fuselage longerons on the F-15.. I believe the cracking on the Su-57 was in the upper section above the aft weapons bay??

If somebody has a "cut-away" drawing of the Su-57 it would be lovely to see it posted here.

 

[anzha]

wrong

What's 'wrong?'

 

[Anlsvrthng]

They already having nontrivial delays.

Significant serial production was supposed to have taken place already and, iirc, 20 odd production examples were supposed to be introduced in 2017. That clearly has not happened.

It's half way through 2019 and we've not seen the two production examples that were ordered around the end of 2017 either at this point. If I were a gambling man, I'd bet we won't see them until next year.

If you count from the first flight of the first F-35A to its IOC, that would be 10 years. We're rapidly approaching that now for the Russians. If you count from the first flight of the X-35, then they have about 5 to 6 more years before they are on par with the F-35 for delays. 76 Su-57s 18 years after the flight of the first prototype is worse than the F-35 program.

F-35B hasn't got validated airframe for 8000 hrs, so not ready for mass production. And it is the airplane that forced many compromise for all three type.

Firs hundred+ aircraft won't be usable as well.

And finally, the F-35 is the only modern aircraft of USA, and Russia has many modern product.

So, the USA can't afford the delays, but Russia can.

And Russia can follow a low cost, low risk model ,with many redesign if needed, but the USA can't.

 

[anzha]

Most of this is whataboutism. I can see why others are saying they don't reply now. This is not a thread talking about the F-35. There is a comparison based on timing. I think you will find few folks will NOT find issue with how the F-35 program was run.

That said, we are discussing the delays to the Su-57. The claims of delays and a comparison between the F-35 and Su-57 as far as there are delays.

There are already delays. That is based on what the Russians have said and what has been observed.

Even if you throw away the 100 airframes of the F-35 (not sure that's accurate, but I'll just give it to you), the F-35 program will STILL have delivered another 300 in the same timeframe. 300 is, last time I checked, still greater than 76.

Again, I am not excusing the F-35 program. Anyone who ever suggests concurrency again out to be taken outback with the belt and chair. However, if you want to do direct comparisons based on output - or /projected/ output! - then the F-35 program for all its sins will have performed better than the Su-57 program.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

There is no evidence that Russia can achieve the price point they claim.
They insist it will cost $50 million. Well if it’s that cheap why aren’t they cranking them out like sausages?
$50 million is a very low cost for a modern Jet fighter. Even modern 4.5gens like Typhoon are still north of $100 million a pop.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

There is no evidence that Russia can achieve the price point they claim.
They insist it will cost $50 million. Well if it’s that cheap why aren’t they cranking them out like sausages?
$50 million is a very low cost for a modern Jet fighter. Even modern 4.5gens like Typhoon are still north of $100 million a pop.

The Su-57 cost 2.2 billion rouble, that is close to two times more than the Su-35, and it doesn't taken into consideration the maintenance cost.

You try to compare the euro/dollar / rouble price with exchange rate, but exchange rate malformed by sanctions and separated markets.

Russia can buy 20 Su-57 from the 1% of military budget, USA can buy 76 F-35 for 1%.

Now, the Su-57 more similar to the F-22 , and that cost close to twice as much as one F-35.

It means that the Russians are on the same efficiency level like the USA in the manufacturing of aircrafts.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

That’s not evidence that opinion.
They only have 12, and most of what we have heard from them are estimates and goals.

 

[gelgoog]

@anzha the first production unit is almost finished. Also IIRC it was supposed to be one unit per year in the first two years.
Only afterwards would the production rate increase.
With regards to delays, which fighter program, or in fact any other advanced weapons program, does not have delays?
The Su-27 had loads of delays too. Even needed a full redesign of the fuselage.

@TerraN_EmpirE , just like @Anlsvrthng said the ruble is undervalued in the market because of the sanctions. Likely by a factor of two or three IMO.
Comparing prices in dollar terms is a fool's errand. It is a twin engine aircraft and it is expected it will have high maintenance and upkeep costs compared with previous generation fighters because of the RAM coatings. I expect them to either make a version of it with degraded stealth to reduce maintenance costs or make a completely different cheap aircraft. But if they are smart, IMO, they should just crank up the production rate and remove the RAM to reduce costs in aircraft not in the front line or in non-contested airspace.

They also need to develop a twin-seat variant eventually to act as a trainer and bomber platform.

Why aren't they increasing the production rate faster? It takes time to set up a production line. Also, it is likely that certain components are still not available in enough quantity to do that. Production processes might also need to be changed to increase production rate.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

1per year isnt a production rate for a fighter. It’s sequential prototyping.

Removal of RAM coatings may help its sustainability cost but at its survivability.
Many 4.5 gen fighters have shaping or limited amounts of RAM on them. They are not considered stealth because it only results in partial RCS reduction instead of detection at 450km you get 300km. Fifth gens aim for RCS reduction the size a musket ball. That reduces the Radar return enough that you have to be in visual range to see it about 40-40km.

Stripping the Ram means that the RCS goes up. Because of the shaping it’s still a reduced RCS but only on par with say a J10.
What that mean is is that it’s targetable by Radar out to 300+KM.
That is basically why Boeing killed the F15SE. Because the amount of modifications made didn’t equal the return. For a fifth percent reduction of RCS you only get a quarter drop in return range.
For SU57 that means if you strip the RAM you might as well scrap it and go back to SU35.
As to twin seaters currently no other Fifth gen has them.

 

[gelgoog]

No because the cheaper Su-57 for mass production would have the AESA radar and the improved engines. It would always be superior to the Su-35.
Because of mass production of it this would decrease parts costs for the stealth version of the Su-57 with RAM installed.
I know no other 5th gen currently has a twin seater but it must happen eventually. The HAL Sukhoi/HAL PGFA was supposed to be a twin seater.