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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Man, I do hope China does something like this in the future…

A stealth 5th gen single engine mid weight fighter? Why would that be necessary for China? I doubt Russia will be the main customer with this fighter and would be willing to bet Russia will stick with heavy weight fighters unless this aircraft actually offers more range and payload than something of its size e.g. F-35.

China prefers heavy weights as well with J-10s only filling the numbers role and having much more restricted and dedicated positions due to range and payload limits.

Something like this would be rather useless for China especially if it has to go to the trouble of developing one. If there was a need to replace J-10 with a 5th gen mid weight but single engined like Checkmate, PLAAF can buy it off the shelf. Except I very, very much doubt China would unless India places a large order. Gotta owe it to yourself to fly what your potential adversaries will fly if the opportunity arises. Remember the US has stolen or purchase and "acquired" many Soviet and Russian missiles and aircraft in the past. Not only to learn and study from for weaknesses and strengths but also to actually test and verify their counters to them.

At this point the effort is better directed at sixth generation aircraft.

Indeed funding and time shouldn't be wasted on yet another 5th gen program, especially a J-10 replacement class aircraft. There is no more advantage having a stealth midweight single engine since at that point of a conflict, the advantages of stealth are worn out. J-10s class is there not to engage 5th gen platforms. Making them stealth must return less than investing that into fighters with more... everything. The handle of a spear doesn't need to be as strong as the tip. It needs to be more numerous and I can't imagine a single engine stealth fighter to be cheaper than a J-10C to buy and run. The only advantage it would have is VLO but could have even less payload if VLO is preserved. Where you use the filler is not where VLO is quite as necessary or desirable (payload). Therefore effort and resources towards the sharp end of the spear rather than pointlessly filling up the handle.

If there wasn't this optimisation or point of diminishing returns, the USAF would never have continued developing upgrade for and buying 4th gen platforms. There is a point at which more 5th gen fighters is not as effective as simply upgrading non 5th gens and spending the balance on the next projects.
 

KampfAlwin

Junior Member
Registered Member
A stealth 5th gen single engine mid weight fighter? Why would that be necessary for China? I doubt Russia will be the main customer with this fighter and would be willing to bet Russia will stick with heavy weight fighters unless this aircraft actually offers more range and payload than something of its size e.g. F-35.

China prefers heavy weights as well with J-10s only filling the numbers role and having much more restricted and dedicated positions due to range and payload limits.

Something like this would be rather useless for China especially if it has to go to the trouble of developing one. If there was a need to replace J-10 with a 5th gen mid weight but single engined like Checkmate, PLAAF can buy it off the shelf. Except I very, very much doubt China would unless India places a large order. Gotta owe it to yourself to fly what your potential adversaries will fly if the opportunity arises. Remember the US has stolen or purchase and "acquired" many Soviet and Russian missiles and aircraft in the past. Not only to learn and study from for weaknesses and strengths but also to actually test and verify their counters to them.



Indeed funding and time shouldn't be wasted on yet another 5th gen program, especially a J-10 replacement class aircraft. There is no more advantage having a stealth midweight single engine since at that point of a conflict, the advantages of stealth are worn out. J-10s class is there not to engage 5th gen platforms. Making them stealth must return less than investing that into fighters with more... everything. The handle of a spear doesn't need to be as strong as the tip. It needs to be more numerous and I can't imagine a single engine stealth fighter to be cheaper than a J-10C to buy and run. The only advantage it would have is VLO but could have even less payload if VLO is preserved. Where you use the filler is not where VLO is quite as necessary or desirable (payload). Therefore effort and resources towards the sharp end of the spear rather than pointlessly filling up the handle.

If there wasn't this optimisation or point of diminishing returns, the USAF would never have continued developing upgrade for and buying 4th gen platforms. There is a point at which more 5th gen fighters is not as effective as simply upgrading non 5th gens and spending the balance on the next projects.
Sorry, I meant: I hope China reveals the J-31/35 like this or an export version.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Thanks Russia for selling 5th gen to China's enemies (e.g. India, Vietnam)... With a friend like Russia, who needs enemies?

Meanwhile, we have (some) board members who are "cautious" of selling Chinese advanced weapons to Iran for fear of pissing off Saudi Arabia and Israel. Does Russia care about pissing off China when selling to India or Vietnam?
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Meanwhile, we have (some) board members who are "cautious" of selling Chinese advanced weapons to Iran for fear of pissing off Saudi Arabia and Israel. Does Russia care about pissing off China when selling to India or Vietnam?

Are you referring to hypothetical J-10 offer to Iran? China sold short range or medium range ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia and Turkey a LONG time ago. That didn't result in Israeli anger at China somehow. Russia selling some fighters to Vietnam? It doesn't concern China too much. To India? Quite a lot more. Russia may want to do that just to secure at least another 24+ units sold to China after India completes orders lol. Can you blame them for looking out for their wallets?

Like I said in the past, would China prefer India get western fighters or Russian fighters? Which do you think China can buy trial token numbers of? Which would China have more leverage over? India buying from Russia won't be pissing China off. If anything it represents better opportunity but SHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't let the Jai Hinds hear that.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Are you referring to hypothetical J-10 offer to Iran? China sold short range or medium range ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia and Turkey a LONG time ago. That didn't result in Israeli anger at China somehow. Russia selling some fighters to Vietnam? It doesn't concern China too much. To India? Quite a lot more. Russia may want to do that just to secure at least another 24+ units sold to China after India completes orders lol. Can you blame them for looking out for their wallets?

Like I said in the past, would China prefer India get western fighters or Russian fighters? Which do you think China can buy trial token numbers of? Which would China have more leverage over? India buying from Russia won't be pissing China off. If anything it represents better opportunity but SHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't let the Jai Hinds hear that.
5th gen fighters is a lot more sensitive than some conventional ballistic missiles. Ballistic missiles isn't even that advanced tech anymore, even North Korea has ICBMs that are among the top 5 longest range in the world.

If Vietnam gets 5th gen fighters, then those island bases China built up in SCS filled with 4th or 4.5th gen fighters will be in big trouble. The balance of power will shift in SCS if Vietnam gets some 5th gen equipped with Brahmos-IIs. Thanks Russia, what a friend.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Thanks Russia for selling 5th gen to China's enemies (e.g. India, Vietnam)... With a friend like Russia, who needs enemies?

Meanwhile, we have (some) board members who are "cautious" of selling Chinese advanced weapons to Iran for fear of pissing off Saudi Arabia and Israel. Does Russia care about pissing off China when selling to India or Vietnam?
Vietnam and India are Russian friends as well. For more than 50 years by now.

And wouldn't it be preferable for them to be close to Russia than even closer to the US?
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Vietnam and India are Russian friends as well. For more than 50 years by now.

And wouldn't it be preferable for them to be close to Russia than even closer to the US?
I'm sure Chinese 4th or 4.5th gen pilots in SCS would be thinking: "At least I'm not dying by Vietnamese planes equipped by American AMRAAMs" if they get shot out of the air by Brahmos-equipped 5th gen Vietnamese Checkmate fighters.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Thanks Russia for selling 5th gen to China's enemies (e.g. India, Vietnam)... With a friend like Russia, who needs enemies?

Meanwhile, we have (some) board members who are "cautious" of selling Chinese advanced weapons to Iran for fear of pissing off Saudi Arabia and Israel. Does Russia care about pissing off China when selling to India or Vietnam?
First of all, that is off topic. Secondly, by your logic, China is being a POS of a friend to Russia by supporting Ukraine instead of allowing it to collapse. Another example would be China selling drone technology and artillery to Arab states who despise Iran. So does that mean China is a POS as well? The thing is business comes first and Russia desperately needs these sales to keep themselves afloat. A couple of lightweight 5th gen aircraft might scare a country like Armenia, but definitely not China due to their intricate and multilayered anti air defense network and superb aircraft quality and quantity. Plus like what others here have just said, in the scenario in which Vietnam and India decided to go pro US, at least Russia can force them to stand down if they use predominantly Russian weapons.
 

Kaine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Thanks Russia for selling 5th gen to China's enemies (e.g. India, Vietnam)... With a friend like Russia, who needs enemies?
Wait, who said that Russia should need approval to whom it will sell its products? Russian and Chinese leaders have repeatedly said that the basis of their relationship is respect of their core interests.

So that means Russia not selling to Taiwan, and China not selling to Eastern Europe.

As long as these red lines are not breached, Russia can sell to whoever it wants. Is China going to gift billions of dollars to Russia because Russia would lose sales to India and Vietnam?

Russia is not a vassal of China, and thus it can and it should pursue its own interests instead of becoming a strategic vassal to China ala Japan to US.

Meanwhile, we have (some) board members who are "cautious" of selling Chinese advanced weapons to Iran for fear of pissing off Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Offtopic and these relationships are different.

Does Russia care about pissing off China when selling to India or Vietnam?
It shouldn't. Russia's MIC is lacking funds and it urgently needs military sales to plug the gaps from the post-Soviet underfunding era. As I said, China could just cover these lost sales and buy from Russia if it wanted to keep these jets out of India's hands


Outside of these geopolitical considerations, I have to say that I like this aircraft. Russia is going to make a lot of military sales with this design. As for China's response, 6th gen is where the game is being played right now, no need for additional investments to 5th gen
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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Wait, who said that Russia should need approval to whom it will sell its products? Russian and Chinese leaders have repeatedly said that the basis of their relationship is respect of their core interests.

So that means Russia not selling to Taiwan,
and China not selling to Eastern Europe.

As long as these red lines are not breached, Russia can sell to whoever it wants. Is China going to gift billions of dollars to Russia because Russia would lose sales to India and Vietnam?

Oh, look at here:
In 2009, Dai Bingguo, then a top Chinese official, first referred to the South China Sea as a “core interest”, a term often used for Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet. (
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So South China Sea is a "core interest" to China, and selling highly advanced 5th gen fighters to SCS disputed rivals is crossing a redline for China.

Sure, Russia is no vassal, they can sell to whomever they want,, but crossing the redline in SCS proves that Russia is not a true ally of China. Russia is an "Ally of Convenience" to China.

First of all, that is off topic. Secondly, by your logic, China is being a POS of a friend to Russia by supporting Ukraine instead of allowing it to collapse. Another example would be China selling drone technology and artillery to Arab states who despise Iran. So does that mean China is a POS as well? The thing is business comes first and Russia desperately needs these sales to keep themselves afloat. A couple of lightweight 5th gen aircraft might scare a country like Armenia, but definitely not China due to their intricate and multilayered anti air defense network and superb aircraft quality and quantity. Plus like what others here have just said, in the scenario in which Vietnam and India decided to go pro US, at least Russia can force them to stand down if they use predominantly Russian weapons.

5th gen fighters is a lot more sensitive technology than "drones", "artillery", "conventional ballistic missiles", or "financial support to Ukraine" that China gives to Arab states.

5th gen fighters is a GAME-CHANGING technology that can alter the balance of power between airforces in the region. Russia just proves it's not China's ally.





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