China can not use m16 like rifle for political reasons but why would a 3rd country buy 191 instead of Chinese 416 clone. Basically the same thing function wise? Maybe Canadian civilians that have AR and AK banned but type 81/97 is allowed.
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
MwRYum
Major
I take it as a lack of launch customer(s) and/or pre-existing large (or at least sizable) government contract .
Many would ask "why not just offer QBZ-191 for export instead?" and if or ever the oddity that 5.8mm raised, "We're using 7.62mm M43 at this tiem, so we'll need to introduce a new caliber for general issue infantry automatic rifles anyway" may very well be the response.
Just like those who happily ordered Type 81 (even brand new ones, not from China's existing stockpile), the notion that there's such a huge user such as China would be assuring that supplies of spares in the ensuing decades can be assured.
It's exactly like comparing an FN SCAR with an HK416. One is an relativedly straight short-stroke gas piston rifle designed for one single caliber. The FN SCAR on the other hand, consists of two separate receivers made of different materials, since it has been designed to swap different calibers on the fly, and has more pieces to care about in general. This is without mentioning how bulky it is.
There is a reason why its only issued in limited numbers by special forces, it's more suitable for them than for general military use.
I've heard that the CZ bren is better and more practical than the SCAR, tough. Maybe if the chinese made it closer to the BREN and made it less bulky, it whould get more acceptance.
China sells guns for commercial purposes and not for political reasons. China got several clients it's M16 clone, like Syria and Iran, and several african and asian countries or non-state actors. China doesn't have an direct HK416 clone AFAIK. An HK416 is not as an ideal as you might think. American soldiers had a few complains about it, about just being an overgased M4a1 with more recoil, not to mention that it costs twice as much. Granted, HK guns are overpriced beyond their production costs, thing that might not occur with the Chinese, but the first point still applies.
The QBZ-191 is comparable to the hk416 in many ways, sharing the same gas system (with differences, of course) and an external physical layout. Third world countries that have a considerable amount of their military equipment by china, will see an export version as an affordable version of an short-stroke rifle for their special units. An accurate, "civilized western" rifle, alternative to an SG551/552.
The best part is that the only requirement is that you don't mess with china. Other countries that sell "fancy" rifles for export and not just for national use, will always have an requirement that you align in favor of their interests, or have an mayor boss (read: USA) that will forbid them from selling you guns.
What is the pros of 191 compared to m4/416 clone? When I said political I meant that China didn't want their army to run around with a iconic US gun so they created 191. The other difference is that 191 is designed for rock and lock magazine. But for a third country using 5.56 is there any reason to chose 191 over CQ m4/416?
I wouldn’t say it’s purely political for China… there are differences in weapon operations between a m4/416 vs the 191 no matter how little…
There are more similarities between qbz 03 and qbz 191 as far as I can tell… with the qbz 03, China was already moving towards a AR style upper and lower in an AK pattern but with a short stroke piston…
At least to me the 191 is more of a further iteration of the 03 this time adding an AR style bolt carrier and recoil system… if we consider the 03 to be of the lineage of the Type 81 then the 191 is basically the PLA main battle rifle returning to the lineage of Type 56.
Type 56 - original AK
Type 81 - AK layout with short stroke piston
Type 03 - AK layout with short stroke piston and AR upper lower
Type 191 - AK layout with short stroke piston, AR upper lower and bolt carrier
Type 95 being the odd one with AK style bullpup design
Depending on how you consider weapon operation and training, the soldiers should have a much easier time going from type 95 or any AK pattern to the 191 than they would to a CQ/M4/416
For other armed forces, the ones currently using an AK (what ever the variant) / AK derivatives, ie the majority of militias and third world countries, should basically be able to pick up a 191 and be comfortable with it straight away practically without training and enjoy the benefits of the AR pattern, ie the spilt upper lower, recoil system and accessories mounting… as far as I know, in some respects the 191 is a first of its kind it operates like an AK but with AR inners
In fact even the Russians seems to have started experimenting with an AR upper lower AK pattern in the AKV-521 currently only going to be for the civilian market
As for a third party already using 5.56 we should ask why the Czechs, Pols and some of the Eastern European countries continue to use an AK derivative rather than redesigning to an AR pattern
Quick correction: The Czechs are switching to the Bren series while the Poles are switching to the MSBS series; both of them are similar to the SCAR. Plus, Latvia is using the G36 while the Estonians are planning to adopt the LMT MARS series, which consists of AR style rifles.
It really depends. The QBZ-95 also was designed for an rocking AK style magazine, yet that didn't stop them from adapting the magwell for STANAG magazines, for the QBZ-97. Some Asian and African countries decided to buy the QBZ-97 for their units, when they had other alternatives, even from Chinese sources.
A good example would be Venezuela. Last year, they bought a batch of QBZ-97B, for their special forces to fulfill the CQB compact assault rifle role, which they had an shortage. Evidently, the qbz-192 in 5.56 would be bought by countries finding themselves in such scenario, specially those that like Venezuela, trying to procure them from USA or western European countries whouldn't be an option.
Also, can someone tell me about said Chinese 416? AFAIK, NORINCO makes a lot of gun copies, there are literal copies of the m4 and the HK mp5, yet, i still haven't seen or heard any Chinese gun company that has an HK416 copy. The only equivalent country to China that has an HK416 copy is Iran, with the Masaf 5.56
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Yeah but the QBZ97’s adapter is terrible. The numbers don’t seem substantial as most buyers have them for specialized or supplementary. Along side existing weapons. Though the QBZ97 has been adopted in 5.56x45mm it just doesn’t seem like the Chinese want to export the 5.8x42mm.
It seems highly unlikely to see the QBZ191 first adapted to 5.56 next exported in the near term. This is as the PLA right now is pushing initial procurement. It will take time for them to build up numbers enough that secondary iterations and contracts can be secured. The same holds for the CS/LR17 as that series seems to undergo substantial changes every appearance indicating it’s still under evolution. With plentiful alternatives in the market and the Chinese arms industry likely giving priority to domestic demand it will take time to open the lines and actually push for sales. A bird in the hand so they say.
The Chinese military in the 1980s set to build their own proprietary caliber to buck the Soviet 5.45x39 AK74 and snub the Western 5.56x45mm well replacing the 7.62x39mm. This choice set the requirements for the PLA not to adopt a rifle family based off an outside design. This would eventually lead to the QBZ95 and QBZ03. But was proven on the type 81 based type 87 Which set the rocking lock magazine. Moving from those to the QBZ191 would be cost prohibitive without selective mitigation measures on price. Since the Chinese government chose to retain the existing caliber logically the elected to retain commonalities of magazine. Besides it’s only really been on the last decade that the STANAG magazine family had really high reliability magazines made available via commercial designers.
The legacy 5.56mm STANAG magazine has been less than stellar due to its design and practical choices. A aluminum magazine intended to be limited to 20 rounds and single use that was reused and extended to 30 rounds.
As to the 416 knockoff
Post in thread 'PLA Small arms'
PLA Small arms
It’s not the only one and the Iranian knockoff is even more of a unknown quantity with questionable production status. Outside of Those two nations you can look at builders from around the globe Who build similar products Turkey, The UEA, a long list of American makers. 416 is one of a list of weapons that combined the AR15 platform designed with the AR18 gas system. Heck in many ways the Chinese had already combined the AK platform design with an AR18 gas system the aforementioned Type 81.
It seems highly unlikely to see the QBZ191 first adapted to 5.56 next exported in the near term. This is as the PLA right now is pushing initial procurement. It will take time for them to build up numbers enough that secondary iterations and contracts can be secured. The same holds for the CS/LR17 as that series seems to undergo substantial changes every appearance indicating it’s still under evolution. With plentiful alternatives in the market and the Chinese arms industry likely giving priority to domestic demand it will take time to open the lines and actually push for sales. A bird in the hand so they say.
The Chinese military in the 1980s set to build their own proprietary caliber to buck the Soviet 5.45x39 AK74 and snub the Western 5.56x45mm well replacing the 7.62x39mm. This choice set the requirements for the PLA not to adopt a rifle family based off an outside design. This would eventually lead to the QBZ95 and QBZ03. But was proven on the type 81 based type 87 Which set the rocking lock magazine. Moving from those to the QBZ191 would be cost prohibitive without selective mitigation measures on price. Since the Chinese government chose to retain the existing caliber logically the elected to retain commonalities of magazine. Besides it’s only really been on the last decade that the STANAG magazine family had really high reliability magazines made available via commercial designers.
The legacy 5.56mm STANAG magazine has been less than stellar due to its design and practical choices. A aluminum magazine intended to be limited to 20 rounds and single use that was reused and extended to 30 rounds.
As to the 416 knockoff
Post in thread 'PLA Small arms'
PLA Small arms
It’s not the only one and the Iranian knockoff is even more of a unknown quantity with questionable production status. Outside of Those two nations you can look at builders from around the globe Who build similar products Turkey, The UEA, a long list of American makers. 416 is one of a list of weapons that combined the AR15 platform designed with the AR18 gas system. Heck in many ways the Chinese had already combined the AK platform design with an AR18 gas system the aforementioned Type 81.
I thought 192 was the short barrel carbine, not the DMR? Or maybe both are 192 but different letters in front?