Plan Yuan Class Aip & Kilo Submarine Thread

taxiya

Major
Registered Member
I don't know where you get the idea that Canada is in competition with PLAN I put the excerpt above to show that it is an old idea. And Canada do have a thriving nuclear industry it is called CANDU program google it But unfortunately they let it wither because lack of fortitude and marketing skill

As the article said every country as their own requirement Canada has vast arctic territory but shallow water Big nuclear sub is impractical. Diesel engine sub lack the endurance
So why not combine the best of two by having hybrid

Now that PLAN adopted this concept Good for them It will give them long patrol capability in western pacific and SCS without worrying lack of fuel or detection during refueling But still need resupply of food
I think the issue or confusion (at least myself) is that you used word "joint venture" in the post. That is really near impossible.
 

taxiya

Major
Registered Member
Well the concept is very old In the 70's there are several companies that do study and one of them was based in Ottawa, Halifax Canada. At that time Canada plan to built hybrid nuclear and conventional Sub
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Here it is The name of the reactor Is SLOPOKE
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Building such a submarine within a small displacement (2,5-3,500 tons surfaced) 60 days endurance, transit speed of 20 knots, burst speeds above 30 knots, and state of the art signature management technologies and support for unmanned platforms would be cost prohibitive for all but the largest Navies.

Canada, however, has potentially very good technologies that can contribute to a joint venture for a new hybrid nuclear submarine design. The Canadian
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has been operating in Canada since 1971 and is licensed for unattended operation. A later variant was rated for 2-10MW per module, just about ideal for a small nuclear-powered submarine. It is conceivable that the design can be freshened, miniaturized, compacted and “fitted” into an existing conventional submarine design displacing 2,500 to 4,000 tons, though quieting radiated noise of a small displacement submarine is challenging and require considerable ingenuity and technical competence.

Packaged with a turbo-generator plant, a SLOWPOKE reactor can also have many civilian applications such as being a steam generating plant for low GHG heavy oil extraction SAGD facilities, or a stationary energy plant for Northern communities. The more units deployed, the lower the fixed costs. That will also spread the political constituencies in favour of the program from just the coastal provinces to Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, Nunavut, and NW Territories: A major consideration given the political fault lines in Canada for a multi billion dollar program.

If Canada contributed a major portion of the development cost of a new modular nuclear power plant for a hybrid submarine, it can be used to negotiate a good price on the vessel. It will also be the only small naval reactor / power plant available that can potentially also be used on surface vessels like the Canadian Surface Combatant or civilian vessels – reducing GHG emissions from shipping potentially opens up lucrative markets for Canadian nuclear technology. Who might partner with
Unfortunately, the Canadian SLOWPOKE design has nothing to do with nuclear propulsion. It is a heating plant that China has built numerous since 1980s. One is just few kilometers from my home in Beijing. It is sub or non critical fuel in a swimming pool to heat up water to less than 100 degrees.

The Chinese nuclear AIP has steam turbines. It is a conventional reactor like others, but under a relative lower pressure and temperature.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Unfortunately, the Canadian SLOWPOKE design has nothing to do with nuclear propulsion. It is a heating plant that China has built numerous since 1980s. One is just few kilometers from my home in Beijing. It is sub or non critical fuel in a swimming pool to heat up water to less than 100 degrees.

The Chinese nuclear AIP has steam turbines. It is a conventional reactor like others, but under a relative lower pressure and temperature.
I don't think so Having a small turbine mean you need condenser, steam generator, feedwater, pump and other accessories which take a lot of space while at the same time you have diesel engine. In a ship space is premium even more so in submarine. Remember we are talking about 3000 to 4000 ton ships here. Typical nuclear sub is 10000 ton.

If you lower the pressure and temperature then you lower the enthalpy of steam meaning you need larger steam turbine and much lower efficiency
In civilian nuclear power plant the steam is categorized as "wet steam" meaning it is close to saturation point and need large steam turbine
Most likely they used the small reactor as plug to generate electricity directly

I bring out slopoke to show that there is such thing as small reactor that operate automatically and safe. No need for nuclear engineer on board or elaborate shielding. That is another problem that you face in nuclear sub. no room. At one time they want to scale it up to 5 MW.

In nuclear sub most likely they used HTGR which generate high pressure and high temperature steam using small steam turbine I though I post 20 MW steam turbine generator gen set at one time
There is no way you can use wet steam for that genset.

The report clearly said it is hybrid system Diesel and small nuclear plant
 
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Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Here is typical schematic of nuclear sub

See the difference in turbine blade size between HP turbine and Low Press Turbine. sorry Iuse the wrong term should be Enthropy and not Enthalpy
 
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Tam

Captain
Registered Member
This mini nuclear reactor + AIP sounds like something the Type 032 Qing class (6,628 tons displacement) might be called to serve as an experimental test platform.
 

taxiya

Major
Registered Member
I don't think so Having a small turbine mean you need condenser, steam generator, feedwater, pump and other accessories which take a lot of space while at the same time you have diesel engine. In a ship space is premium even more so in submarine. Remember we are talking about 3000 to 4000 ton ships here. Typical nuclear sub is 10000 ton.

If you lower the pressure and temperature then you lower the enthalpy of steam meaning you need larger steam turbine and much lower efficiency
In civilian nuclear power plant the steam is categorized as "wet steam" meaning it is close to saturation point and need large steam turbine
Most likely they used the small reactor as plug to generate electricity directly

I bring out slopoke to show that there is such thing as small reactor that operate automatically and safe. No need for nuclear engineer on board or elaborate shielding. That is another problem that you face in nuclear sub. no room. At one time they want to scale it up to 5 MW.

In nuclear sub most likely they used HTGR which generate high pressure and high temperature steam using small steam turbine I though I post 20 MW steam turbine generator gen set at one time
There is no way you can use wet steam for that genset.

The report clearly said it is hybrid system Diesel and small nuclear plant
But the PLAN think so ;)
upload_2019-5-4_19-36-51.png
P.S. and most importantly, it is a THREE loop reactor, different from conventional PWR in SSN/SSBNs.
It is natural circulated due to the lower temperature and power output.

All your arguments are based on conventional "high pressure, high temperature" two loop PWR, BUT we are talking about a different thing "low pressure, low temperature" three loop PWR.

Besides, PLAN admit that this reactor has lower efficiency than conventional PWR, they have no problem with it, it is a AIP, not a true SSN/SSBN.
 
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taxiya

Major
Registered Member
Here is typical schematic of nuclear sub

See the difference in turbine blade size between HP turbine and Low Press Turbine. sorry Iuse the wrong term should be Enthropy and not Enthalpy
But we are not talking about TYPICAL naval PWR.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
But the PLAN think so ;)
View attachment 52195
P.S. and most importantly, it is a THREE loop reactor, different from conventional PWR in SSN/SSBNs.
It is natural circulated due to the lower temperature and power output.
Still need steam generator and and condenser, you can avoid using pump but there is no way to avoid steam generator and condenser because it is rankine cycle after all And pump it still needed for the steam generator loop it is shown on right hand corner
The primary loop does not need pump
 

taxiya

Major
Registered Member
Still need steam generator and and condenser, you can avoid using pump but there is no way to avoid steam generator and condenser because it is rankine cycle after all And pump it still needed for the steam generator loop
That is true, and no objection to that. But we are only talking about what PLAN has planned for their future AIP "conventional" sub, not what is the perfect sub, right?
 
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