PLAN Naval Helicopter & ASW Capability II

superdog · Sep 30, 2022

lcloo said:
Z8C night landing on ship #845.

According to my file photo, PLAN ship #845 Qingzhou is a type 081 minesweeper without helicopter landing deck. So the puzzle is which ship is this? From the photo, the landing deck is similar to that of type 072 LST.

That's a type 925 submarine support ship, PLANS 845 Wuliangsuhai. It was previously the 861 Changxing Island.

List of rescue ship name changes:

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861长兴岛更名845乌梁素海
862崇明岛更名820东钱湖
864海洋岛更名846洪泽湖
867长岛更名847阳澄湖
北救138更名849喀纳斯湖
东救332更名821太平湖
北救122更名848白马湖
南救510更名831南漪湖

861 Changxing Island was renamed 845 Wuliangsuhai
862 Chongming Island was renamed 820 Dongqian Lake
864 Haiyangdao was renamed 846 Hongze Lake
867 Changdao changed its name to 847 Yangcheng Lake
Beijiu 138 changed its name to 849 Kanas Lake
Dongjiu 332 changed its name to 821 Taiping Lake
Beijiu 122 changed its name to 848 Baima Lake
Nanjiu 510 changed its name to 831 Nanyi Lake

I can't verify the above list, but it seemed believable as the helicopter deck in your photo fully matches old photos of 861 (same railing pattern and light fixture positions)

YES · Oct 3, 2022

Atomicfrog said:
We are lacking a lot of information in the noise departement... I would clearly like to hear a Z10 passing by. We got some good video in Ukraine with a mi-28 passing followed by a ka-52, and the ka52 is surprisingly quiet. Z-19 with it's fenestron tail is probably quiet too, the Z-10 with a conventional tail is probably a lot less. For a shore attack from the sea, I would like a quiet helicopter a lot more than an heavier one.

dont see the point of it, is your hearing better than radars? the main threats for helicopter is still aa gun and missiles

Atomicfrog · Oct 3, 2022

YES said:
dont see the point of it, is your hearing better than radars? the main threats for helicopter is still aa gun and missiles

For ground troops with manpads and aa guns like ZU-23-2 , hearing is quite important. You cancel a lot of threats from manpads and small guns emplacements if they don't have the time to react. Small arm can shotdown attack helicopter too... going more silently is better. For Naval helicopter that stay over water it's not a big deal but over ground it can.

YES · Oct 4, 2022

Atomicfrog said:
For ground troops with manpads and aa guns like ZU-23-2 , hearing is quite important. You cancel a lot of threats from manpads and small guns emplacements if they don't have the time to react. Small arm can shotdown attack helicopter too... going more silently is better. For Naval helicopter that stay over water it's not a big deal but over ground it can.

to be honest, the normal process for those kind of AA missions despite land or navy would look like the radars first pick up the signal, depending on the range between the signal and the protected area, long range AA missile would usually be the first to get the orders to shot it down, if it fails then moving onto mid range missile and if it also fails then the close range options have AA guns or something like stingers, and mostly the orders given to those unit will include something like a objective coming from north, get ready for shot down or else, then the units prepare them self for that direction, then contact on visual or radar, then every thing's up to you to sent your mates to hell or not. so as far as common sense goes, unless you're superman or they smashed a tractor engi into their plane, you will gets order saying where to look for before you can hear them, and if you don't, but hear them coming, well, going somewhere where cat girl exits isn't a bad choice, I mean, the modern engine is already quiet enough to leave you not enough time to sets up your equipment, you'll find your self getting a cat girlfriend soon enough or they don't even bother and just keep flying, long gone before you gets everything ready, the only situation I can think of you'll have a chance without pre order is you find your self leftted by the convoy helicopter, and the carrier helicopter is dismounting, but again, the chance is pretty low, nobody wants to spending tons on money just for a upgrade they never use

YES · Oct 4, 2022

Atomicfrog said:
For ground troops with manpads and aa guns like ZU-23-2 , hearing is quite important. You cancel a lot of threats from manpads and small guns emplacements if they don't have the time to react. Small arm can shotdown attack helicopter too... going more silently is better. For Naval helicopter that stay over water it's not a big deal but over ground it can.

I mean, I guess special ops is also one of the situation? but how many will they buy? compare to those don't need such function?

Atomicfrog · Oct 4, 2022

YES said:
I mean, I guess special ops is also one of the situation? but how many will they buy? compare to those don't need such function?

It's just to see why they would look to buy some. I don't see the benefit of having too many attack helicopter types on deck anyway, maintenance could become a nightmare because you need to bring spare and tools for each types on quite a limited space and volume on ships. A quiet helicopter is nice against low tier opponents tho, maybe the gossip about buying some ka-52 for the fleet is just to assess the benefitsaa of the type and compare, like the buying of some SU-35.

Atomicfrog · Oct 4, 2022

YES said:
to be honest, the normal process for those kind of AA missions despite land or navy would look like the radars first pick up the signal, depending on the range between the signal and the protected area, long range AA missile would usually be the first to get the orders to shot it down, if it fails then moving onto mid range missile and if it also fails then the close range options have AA guns or something like stingers, and mostly the orders given to those unit will include something like a objective coming from north, get ready for shot down or else, then the units prepare them self for that direction, then contact on visual or radar, then every thing's up to you to sent your mates to hell or not. so as far as common sense goes, unless you're superman or they smashed a tractor engi into their plane, you will gets order saying where to look for before you can hear them, and if you don't, but hear them coming, well, going somewhere where cat girl exits isn't a bad choice, I mean, the modern engine is already quiet enough to leave you not enough time to sets up your equipment, you'll find your self getting a cat girlfriend soon enough or they don't even bother and just keep flying, long gone before you gets everything ready, the only situation I can think of you'll have a chance without pre order is you find your self leftted by the convoy helicopter, and the carrier helicopter is dismounting, but again, the chance is pretty low, nobody wants to spending tons on money just for a upgrade they never use

In a perfect defence scenario with a multilayered defence you have multiple engagement profile. But Helicopter are somewhat hard to detect.

You can hear noisy helicopter from miles and it's not the engine that do the noise at all. Engine noise is only when helicopter pass overhead while rotor and tail rotor makes the majority of long range noise. A NOTAR will pass right above you before you heard it, an AH-1Z Viper from 5 miles or so... even without radar contact you have time to react.

YES · Oct 4, 2022

Atomicfrog said:
It's just to see why they would look to buy some. I don't see the benefit of having too many attack helicopter types on deck anyway, maintenance could become a nightmare because you need to bring spare and tools for each types on quite a limited space and volume on ships. A quiet helicopter is nice against low tier opponents tho, maybe the gossip about buying some ka-52 for the fleet is just to assess the benefitsaa of the type and compare, like the buying of some SU-35.

having multiple helicopters doing the same job is indeed a nightmare, but I'd doubt if a low level opponents needs a quieter helicopter better or more ground troops specific at LIC plus more political work, like what they're doing to their PAP forces

Atomicfrog said:
In a perfect defence scenario with a multilayered defence you have multiple engagement profile. But Helicopter are somewhat hard to detect.

You can hear noisy helicopter from miles and it's not the engine that do the noise at all. Engine noise is only when helicopter pass overhead while rotor and tail rotor makes the majority of long range noise. A NOTAR will pass right above you before you heard it, an AH-1Z Viper from 5 miles or so... even without radar contact you have time to react.

yeah, not a engineer you see, but why is a helicopter is smashing itself into a AA unit in 5 miles at the first place? something tells me that's bad intelligence work and bad route planning, not the noise to be blamed, and if it's someone from the assaulting area heard it, then it's convoy's job to get rid of them before they had the chance to hear it.

Sinnavuuty · Oct 5, 2022

YES said:
to be honest, the normal process for those kind of AA missions despite land or navy would look like the radars first pick up the signal, depending on the range between the signal and the protected area, long range AA missile would usually be the first to get the orders to shot it down, if it fails then moving onto mid range missile and if it also fails then the close range options have AA guns or something like stingers, and mostly the orders given to those unit will include something like a objective coming from north, get ready for shot down or else, then the units prepare them self for that direction, then contact on visual or radar, then every thing's up to you to sent your mates to hell or not. so as far as common sense goes, unless you're superman or they smashed a tractor engi into their plane, you will gets order saying where to look for before you can hear them, and if you don't, but hear them coming, well, going somewhere where cat girl exits isn't a bad choice, I mean, the modern engine is already quiet enough to leave you not enough time to sets up your equipment, you'll find your self getting a cat girlfriend soon enough or they don't even bother and just keep flying, long gone before you gets everything ready, the only situation I can think of you'll have a chance without pre order is you find your self leftted by the convoy helicopter, and the carrier helicopter is dismounting, but again, the chance is pretty low, nobody wants to spending tons on money just for a upgrade they never use

I totally agree with your comment, the C2 of an air defense unit works exactly that way, but I also partially agree with @Atomicfrog

For what reason partially?

Because for planning purposes, the actions related to the deployment of the anti-aircraft artillery control and warning system in support of a coordinated attack can be divided into three distinct phases, which will influence the the way the sensors will be positioned. In one of the three phases, the responsibility for detecting as far as possible in the direction of the enemy lies with the troop that is in contact and this advancing troop will not be covered by adequate sensors to perform this function, often using their hearing. In this way, the anti-aircraft artillery of the troop that is in a zone close to this advanced unit against the enemy will deploy its sensors in the direction related by the advancing units in order to provide radar coverage of their established anti-aircraft defenses, trying to coordinate with the other units that are deployed nearby, this radar coverage, if well targeted, may well employ only passive channels.

Let's say in a hypothetical example that the unit in contact with the enemy has not been able to carry out the reconnaissance of tactical aviation or enemy helicopters because of the absence of sensors and radars in addition to not having heard or seen the aircraft flying over their positions, this will inevitably give a shorter response time for air defense units that have these sensors because they will not know where to point and believe me, these radars and sensors do not operate 24/7.

This example clearly stands out in relation to land-based air defenses, while your C2 example of an air defense unit serves both naval and land commands. As he exemplified the case of anti-aircraft guns and MANPADS, this situation of using hearing in a C2 requirement of an anti-aircraft unit is still valid if we are going to analyze that this will only serve for units that are in contact with the enemy, sometimes elements of reconnaissance, special forces element among other elite forces capable of performing such communication and validation of air targets.

YES · Oct 7, 2022

Sinnavuuty said:
I totally agree with your comment, the C2 of an air defense unit works exactly that way, but I also partially agree with @Atomicfrog

For what reason partially?

Because for planning purposes, the actions related to the deployment of the anti-aircraft artillery control and warning system in support of a coordinated attack can be divided into three distinct phases, which will influence the the way the sensors will be positioned. In one of the three phases, the responsibility for detecting as far as possible in the direction of the enemy lies with the troop that is in contact and this advancing troop will not be covered by adequate sensors to perform this function, often using their hearing. In this way, the anti-aircraft artillery of the troop that is in a zone close to this advanced unit against the enemy will deploy its sensors in the direction related by the advancing units in order to provide radar coverage of their established anti-aircraft defenses, trying to coordinate with the other units that are deployed nearby, this radar coverage, if well targeted, may well employ only passive channels.

Let's say in a hypothetical example that the unit in contact with the enemy has not been able to carry out the reconnaissance of tactical aviation or enemy helicopters because of the absence of sensors and radars in addition to not having heard or seen the aircraft flying over their positions, this will inevitably give a shorter response time for air defense units that have these sensors because they will not know where to point and believe me, these radars and sensors do not operate 24/7.

This example clearly stands out in relation to land-based air defenses, while your C2 example of an air defense unit serves both naval and land commands. As he exemplified the case of anti-aircraft guns and MANPADS, this situation of using hearing in a C2 requirement of an anti-aircraft unit is still valid if we are going to analyze that this will only serve for units that are in contact with the enemy, sometimes elements of reconnaissance, special forces element among other elite forces capable of performing such communication and validation of air targets.

huh, I never thought this before, is this what happens in reality most of the time? can you please tell a bit more on the three phases? or a source, please? books, website, any is fine.

PLAN Naval Helicopter & ASW Capability II

superdog

Junior Member

YES

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Atomicfrog

Major

YES

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YES

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Atomicfrog

Major

Atomicfrog

Major

YES

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Sinnavuuty

Senior Member

YES

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