PLAN Naval Helicopter & ASW Capability II


Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Can somebody explain how capable are Chinese at Anti submarine warfare , cause i heard American submarines are quieter then a school of small plankton thats really quiet , my uncle Jack told me this hes a retired WW2 submariner , Uss Caiman SS 323

It doesn't matter how quiet you are when the ASW ship starts pinging because detection is based on reflecting sound waves, not quietness. The only thing a submarine can do is depend on their coatings to absorb the sound waves, which doesn't always work, and to use thermoclines --- different layers of water with different salinity and temperature variations --- to reflect these sound waves.

So the ASW ship or helicopter will use a VDS or variable depth sonar, which it tows behind the ship and it can lower through the thermocline, and starts pinging.

A lot of Chinese warships have VDS as a standard, including Type 056A corvettes and Type 054A frigates.
 

Mark777c

New Member
Registered Member
It doesn't matter how quiet you are when the ASW ship starts pinging because detection is based on reflecting sound waves, not quietness. The only thing a submarine can do is depend on their coatings to absorb the sound waves, which doesn't always work, and to use thermoclines --- different layers of water with different salinity and temperature variations --- to reflect these sound waves.

So the ASW ship or helicopter will use a VDS or variable depth sonar, which it tows behind the ship and it can lower through the thermocline, and starts pinging.

A lot of Chinese warships have VDS as a standard, including Type 056A corvettes and Type 054A frigates.
Thx for the reply , so is the Z-9 a good helicopter in asw ?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thx for the reply , so is the Z-9 a good helicopter in asw ?

Not really. Its a bit small for that purpose but its far better than nothing. PLAN also has the Ka-28, the Z-18 and a new version of the Z-20. All better because they are bigger. The Z-18 however is too big for the frigates and destroyers, the Z-20 is probably intended to fit the extended 052D.
 

by78

Lieutenant General
I think this is a picture from the recent naval exercise with Pakistani Navy.

I post this because this seems to be the first picture depicting helipad deck crew of a surface combatant with comprehensive head gear (helmet, goggles, ear protection), whereas previous pictures all seem to depict them without helmet and ear protection at least.
I think this shows some of the more basic equipment taken granted by navies with higher funding-per-personnel is finally filtering down to standard Chinese navy personnel.
This isn't to say the Chinese Navy necessarily were cutting corners before or currently in major ways, but some basic equipment previously possibly deemed "unessential" are probably slowly percolating through the forces due to greater funding-per-personnel.

MgGnsAG.jpg


One thing that will be keenly watched for is the wearing of flash gear by Chinese Navy sailors. We've seen them with gas masks during training before even on older second line surface combatants before, which is encouraging, but flash gear would help even more.

From a recent exercise. This seems to be a different type of head gear. It looks a lot like the helmets worn by helicopter pilots, except it's painted orange. I wonder what's mounted on the back.

49964089832_3458ddedab_o.jpg
 

kickars

Junior Member
Z20 is not my type, its just not I'd rather they had nothing
So in your option it will be better if all the new ships (eg. 052DL, 055, 075...) have no helicopters than adopting the new Z20s?

Btw, my 3 year old had similar thoughts yesterday when I tried to give him a few fish fingers for lunch. But he insisted on having chicken nuggets which we didn’t have. So in the end he was like I’d rather have nothing than eating fish fingers...
 

AndrewS

Colonel
Registered Member
No the Z9 is a terrible helicopter which has a terrible range

Z20 is not my type, its just not I'd rather they had nothing

The Z-20 is supposed to be comparable to the SeaHawk helicopters that are used on US Navy Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers.

So what do you expect the Chinese Navy to be happy with?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Interesting by hook and crook china will get the knowledge to hunt for submarine. But most likely just plain paranoia
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Russia accuses scientist of treason for passing secrets to China: lawyer
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June 15, 2020, 3:53 AM CDT


MOSCOW (Reuters) - State prosecutors have charged a prominent Russian scientist with treason after accusing him of passing state secrets to China, his lawyer said on Monday, adding that his client could serve up to 20 years in prison if found guilty.
Valery Mitko, president of the Arctic Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg, has been under house arrest since authorities charged him with high treason in February.

Ivan Pavlov, his lawyer, said the 78-year-old academic travelled to China twice a year to speak as a guest lecturer and denied handing state secrets to the Chinese authorities.
Mitko did travel to China with documents for his lectures, but these contained academic and open source information only, Pavlov said.


"There were no state secrets in there at all. We consider these accusations to be absurd," Pavlov said, saying he hoped the case would be dismissed before trial.
A source told the Interfax news agency that Mitko has been accused of having given China information pertaining to methods used to detect submarines.
Mitko is also a former navy captain and served in the Pacific Fleet, according to an association of Russian navy veterans.

A number of Russian scientists have been arrested and charged with treason in recent years for allegedly handing sensitive material to foreigners. Critics of the Kremlin say the arrests often stem from unfounded paranoia.

Russia is an important player in the Arctic region and has been building up its military presence there as climate change has opened up the resource-rich region.
China, which defines itself as a "near-Arctic state", is seeking better access to untapped resources and faster trade through the Northern Sea Route. It has also invested more in Arctic research.
Despite the misgivings of some nationalist politicians, Russia has increasingly prioritised closer ties with China, especially since its relations with the West collapsed in 2014 over its annexation of Crimea from Ukraine.

(Reporting by Gabrielle Tétrault-Farber; Additional reporting by Tom Balmforth; Editing by Andrew Osborn and Gareth Jones)
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I always believe Maritime UAV is the way to go to beef up China ASW plus China has highly developed UAV industry and sensor system industry Here is what Israel plan to do with maritime UAV
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| June 9, 2020


Beihang UAS is offering an improved version of the shadowy in-service BZK-005 medium altitude long endurance reconnaissance UAV for export. (JR Ng)


Maritime patrolling with UAVs has becoming the norm, allowing manned missions to be dedicated to more mission specific tasks.
Airborne maritime operations such as anti-submarine warfare (ASW), intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and patrol missions have typically been the province of multi-engine aircraft specifically designed for extended overwater operations or commercial platforms modified for such operations.

However, the means of acquiring and maintaining adequate fleets of such manned platforms remain beyond what some Asia Pacific countries – including maritime states with large economic exclusive zones (EEZs) and contiguous waters to secure – can field by their respective air and naval forces and maritime security agencies.

As a result, there is a growing requirement for affordable alternatives to conventional ISR and maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) which the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) industry hopes to address with medium- and high-altitude, long endurance (MALE and HALE) platforms with their long range and loiter capabilities as well as their inherent to carry multiple sensor payloads simultaneously.

At the other end of the spectrum are smaller fixed-wing and vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) UAVs, which are also gaining favour as shipborne ISR assets that can be readily deployed to extend a surface vessel’s detection range.

MALE UAVs

Israel’s Elbit Systems has developed a maritime patrol mission suite for its Hermes 900 UAV, which can comprise a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) such as Leonardo’s Gabianno T200 X-band radar, a stabilised electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) turret and electronic surveillance systems.

According to Elbit’s specifications, the Hermes 900 has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of up to 2,600lb (1,180kg) and can carry 660lb (300kg) of mission equipment. This includes up to 550lb (250kg) of internal stores in its 2.5m-long payload bay, which the company believes to be among the largest available for its class.

Elbit Systems has also stated that its Universal Ground Control Station (UGCS) can simultaneously control two Hermes 900 UAVs to maximise asset utilisation and manpower, while reducing overall operating costs.

The Hermes 900 has met with a recent string of successes in Europe. For instance, the European Maritime Safety Agency (EMSA) has been used to provide maritime patrol services to on a daily rotation since April 2019, with Iceland being the first country to take advantage of this service. According to Elbit Systems, the Icelandic maritime authorities are using the eastern Egilsstaðir airport from which the UAV – modified to withstand the North Atlantic Ocean’s strong winds and icy conditions – can cover over half of the country’s EEZ.


Hermes-900-UAV.jpg

Elbit Systems has found some traction in the airborne maritime patrol and surveillance market with its Hermes 900 UAV. (Elbit Systems)
The Hermes 900 has also found regional traction with at least two of the nine air vehicles – ordered under a $153 million package that includes other UAVs such as the Hermes 450 and Skylark – already delivered and undergoing local testing and integration by the Philippine Air Force (PAF).

Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana told media that the Hermes 450 and Hermes 900 UAVs are expected to be operated from airbases in Palawan province facing the South China Sea as well as in the southern province of Mindanao.

More recently, Elbit Systems announced in February that it has been contracted by the UK’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) to supply several UAV’s including the Hermes 900 to explore the feasibility of supporting search and rescue (SAR) operations. The MCA will commence evaluations from West Wales airport within 2020, while the maritime missions will be conducted within the Aberporth military training area.

One of the main objectives, according to MCA officials, will be to validate the effectiveness and safety of UAVs and pave the way for Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) permission to operate these systems in unrestricted airspace.

Heron Fishes for Subs
Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has introduced a new ASW capability to its Heron MALE UAV family. The company said it has developed a new sonobuoy dispensing system (SDS) and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) which enable air vehicle to detect and track submarines in both shallow and deep waters.

These new payloads complement the Heron’s primary surveillance sensor, the IAI ELTA E/LM-2022U maritime radar which is lighter and more compact version of the E/LM-2022 system already deployed aboard MPAs around the world. According to IAI, the E/LM-2022U can cover up to 150 nautical miles (nm) of water from a cruising altitude of 20,000 feet (6,100m)

“The use of UAV-mounted ASW capabilities offers significant advantages over conventional manned aircraft, including longer mission time, persistent monitoring of sonobuoys, and centralised operation of surveillance over very large areas,” the company stated.

According to IAI, the radar – which it claims can detect and classify “all types” of surface targets from large vessels to low radar cross section (RCS) boats using inverse-SAR mode – can be complemented by electronic support measures (ESM) and communications intelligence (COMINT) systems to monitor electromagnetic signatures and cue the radar to the presence of vessels and human activity.

“The ELM-2022U can spot submarine periscopes and snorkels from a great distance,” the company added, noting that the UAV would engage its SDS and loiter over an area to receive and process acoustic signals generated by deployed sonobuoys, cross referenced with data from its MAD probe, radar, and EO/IR sights. The intelligence is then transmitted to a shore-based control centre or a ship’s combat information centre (CIC) using satellite communication (SATCOM) or direct line-of-sight (LOS) datalinks.

IAI is also highlighting how Heron UAV mission control modules, including stabilised directional antennas and SATCOM terminals, can enable naval vessels to take over control of in-theatre UAVs to as part of their organic sensor net to boost situational awareness.

The Chinese Perspective
The People’s Republic of China (PRC) is widely seen to be one of the leading regional developers of maritime-specific UAVs, having deployed such platforms operationally for at least a decade. For instance, the interception of a Chinese air vehicle – since identified to be the MALE-class Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (BUAA) BZK-005 – by Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) combat aircraft over the East China Sea on 9 September 2013 provided the first glimpse of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF’s) emerging long-range unmanned maritime surveillance capabilities.

According to the Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD), the JASDF aircraft tracked the UAV heading towards the Miyako strait between Okinawa and Miyakojima islands before the air vehicle performed a short circular patrol about 92nm (170km) shy of the waterway before returning to China.

The indigenously developed BZK-005 UAV – also known as the Changying (Long Eagle) – is understood to be the standard long-range reconnaissance and electronic intelligence (ELINT) platform for the PLAAF as well as the PLA Ground Force (PLAGF) and PLA Navy (PLAN).

According to Beihang UAS, the commercial arm of BUAA, the distinctive airframe of the BZK-005 comprises a main fuselage that incorporates a top-mounted satellite communications antenna fairing, with swept back mid-mounted wings that support twin tailbooms.

Company specifications, the BZK-005 has maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 2,755lb (1,250kg) and offers a payload carrying capacity of 330lb (150kg). The UAV is powered by a rear-mounted piston engine that drives a two-bladed pusher-propeller that enables it to attain a claimed maximum level flight speed of 107kts (200km/h) although it typically cruises at speeds between 64-97kts (120-180 km/h) up to its ceiling of 24,000ft (7,300m). Operational radius is believed to exceed 1,000 nautical miles (1,850km) when equipped with SATCOM datalinks.

Beihang UAS is quoting a flight endurance of 40 hours when the BZK-005 is configured as a maritime ISR platform with a chin-mounted EO/IR sensor turret, although it has also been sighted over the years with a chin-mounted SAR system along with a belly mounted EO/IR turret, or studded with COMINT/ELINT antennas.
 

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