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T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Bltizo said:
Thanks for the translation as always.

My thoughts...

- Amphib expansion is reasonable and expected. I wonder if any of the 075 production will feature improvements. Total of 8 075s would easily be the world's 2nd largest LHD fleet by a long shot and within spitting range of the USN.

- Continued production of 055, 052D is reasonable, not unexpected, but I wonder how far he is projecting forwards. Specifically, we are all expecting at least an 055A to emerge around 2025 and potentially an 052E depending on what 054B looks like... so I'm not sure how many years forwards he's thinking here.

- Concurrent production of a bunch of new build 054As as well as 054Bs at the same time does make me wonder if 054B is a meaningfully larger ship than 054A (>5k or even >6k tons). After all, simultaneously building two ship classes of similar weight class wouldn't make that much sense imo. OTOH, it might mean that 054B is expected to field so much new additional technology they want a sufficient frigate backup just in case there are delays with 054B. Or both. If 054A production is meant to continue at HP and HD I also wonder where 054B will be done.

- The new build 054As are also interesting, and an additional 20 (!!) 054As is quite a significant development, increasing the current in service fleet by a whopping 2/3rds. I think the 054A really does strike a balance between being blue water capable but also being sufficiently small and cheap to be also very suitable for robust near-waters/regional missions. After all, an 054A is basically as capable as the most capable surface combatant from any navy in southeast asia in service today. But building another 20 054As (that will likely extend production to 2025 at least) also makes me feel like it should feature at least some upgrades from current ships. It's probably too much to expect 054A to be equipped with the UVLS or the new radar intended for 054B, but I feel like the Sea Eagle radar and the overall HHQ-16 SARH fire control system could be upgraded -- if they're really going to commit to a fleet of 50 054As overall then upgrades to the entire class's weapons systems and sensors and FCS should be inevitable, and the PLAN of the early 2020s should have a much more mature MIC to draw upon for the weapons and sensors suite than the PLAN of the mid 2000s when 054A was first produced.
Some sensible improvements might be replacement of Sea Eagle with a new small/medium size AESA (maybe the one intended for the Pakistani 054A/Ps, or similar?), the pursuit of an ARH guided HHQ-16 (they almost definitely won't be quad packing the new 3-5 missile in the 054A's VLS and the HHQ-16 is a large enough missile that with upgrades can become a SAM with 100+ km range, perhaps a worthwhile upgrade for a 50 strong ship fleet which the 054A/Ps will benefit from as well).... and at the very least extension/redesign of the helipad and hangar to accommodate Z-20F.

- The distinct lack of mention of carriers is noted, and seems deliberate. Fair and understandable.

- The mention of 076 is of course useful because, further confirming/entrenching that it is a real project. I don't think we had any lingering doubts, but reconfirmation is always useful given the sort of ship 076 is meant to be and how fast the information about it first came out.
Click to expand...


Me thinks that "new" 054A would likely have an extended helo deck for Z-20. That could add extra weight on the ship which could be offset by new engines or reduced hull drag. I have been suspecting 052DL may have upgraded engines as well.

My radar scenarios for the "new" 054A has these possibilities:

1. Use SR2410C from the PN frigates, but note that these frigates are likely to also have a VHF array in the back, like Type 517E. SR2410C is a C-band which can mean reduced range for greater resolution and that's probably why it has to pair with a VHF search radar to give it sensor range. The idea of putting VHF radar is interesting given the revival of this idea with the 052C/D as an anti-stealth radar. It should be noted that the 052 refit added Type 517, the 053H3 refits all kept them, although the 051B refit removed it.

2. Type 382 Sea Eagle replacement with dual sided AESA + Type 364 Sea Gull C replacement with dual sided AESA.

3. Keep Type 382 Sea Eagle, but do Type 364 Sea Gull C replacement with dual sided AESA. Call this the Type 075 style.

4. Do Type 382 Sea Eagle replacement with the dual sided AESA, keep Type 364 Sea Gull C.

HQ-16 likely retained, PLAN seems to like this system very much. It seems reliable and has a high PK, despite lack of range and high bulk.

I am projecting Sea Gull replacement on new block 052DL. The problem of the Type 364 Sea Gull is that it is a 2D radar, and that its replacement is a 3D scanning AESA. Eventually this radar will be part of MLU on all older ships with the Type 364.
 
lcloo

lcloo

Captain
weig2000 said:
pop3 leaks
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about PLAN's latest build plan:

如图所示
054B明年启动; (054B to start construction next year)
054A后续再上20艘，黄埔12艘、沪东8艘; (20 more 054A, 12 by Huangpu, 8 by Hudong)
055现在已知16艘; (total 16 055's known currently)
052D、071、075都会上批量，如075目前总数8艘。 (052D, 071, 075 will continue with batch production, e.g., total 8 075's known now)
076现在尚未走完程序，后续不祥。(076 still in the process, don't know what's next exactly)

View attachment 65539

I don't quite understand the 20 more 054A's while starting 054B at the same time. There are enough 054A now; they should concentrate on 054B instead. Also, 054B or 057 should be at least over 5k tons, preferably over 6k tons. One explanation would be 054B will be an incremental upgrade from 054A, with slight increase in displacement, sensor upgrades, even IEPS.
Click to expand...
The exact translation of this "054B明年启动" is 054B will commence next year.

What is to be commenced can mean several things. Does it mean commence of
1) the building program, i.e. preparation of tooling and requisition of machinery, component contracts tenders will be carry out and will be closed xx months later etc. OR
2) cutting of steels in shipyards.

The continual construction of type 054A indicate that, although the 054B program has started, the actual steel cutting work may take place a year or two from now. The design of 054B may be completed (or may be not) at this moment. Also, they will need to do validation tests on the ship design as well its components before steel cutting.

Based on US's recent experience on problems faced on new technology war ships, I believe PLAN will take a cautionary steps like building 2 ships for evaluation in actual running on the open seas, finding and correct any flaws before proceed with the follow up production.

Therefore the building of twenty 054A from next year onwards does sound reasonable and in line with conservative approach of PLA tradition.
 
S

Sczepan

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Could someone please translate this exact?
076现在尚未走完程序，后续不祥

MS Bing translated
076 Has not yet completed the procedure, the follow-up is ominous

What could "ominous" mean in the context?
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I concur with the idea that the extra 20 054A can likely mean 054b is not right around the corner, and we might not see significant number of those for another decade.

That being said, 054A being the same as today's 054A, basically the same as ones from late 2000s onward, is still baffling. I guess it remains to be seen what they will really be like, but 054A really could use more than a cosmetic upgrade. That goes for the ships in service as well as any possible restart of the production line. Sensible upgrades, yet ones without breaking the bank might include:
(not all these may be applicable to modernization of existing 054A)
Compatibility of hangar and pad with Z20.
New radar and electronics suite.
New missiles. Perhaps moving a part of the 054A fleet's role away from ship to ship combat and focusing it more on antisubmarine work while further improving its anti aircraft and especially anti missile capabilities. So 054A could, if need be, act as a true picket platform, a decent line of defense both against subs and incoming missiles. (I am not talking about picket role far out of the fleet, just merely another circle of defense outside of the big, expensive destroyers/carriers/assault ships)
New, smaller modules for the UVLS, containing 4 cells.
Possibly new, medium length UVLS modules.

I don't think putting the UVLS instead of current VLS would necessarily be too much work. But it all ties into new missiles. If further missiles can't be used from UVLS, then the fewer cells of UVLS might not make sense changing the existing VLS.

Anyway, 054A rumor is definitely most surprising out of all those. We'll have to see how it all pans out.
 
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