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This is taken from... Yes, that's not an Arleigh Burke destroyer in the distance.

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LOL good catch Tam

I would've thought every intern in the Pentagon could at least tell the ship isn't a Burke Thursday at 1:39 PM
 

Lethe

Captain
If the PLAN wanted to mitigate against mission creep for the 054 series, it would not have designed a ship that is by current rumor not much bigger than the 054A. If it had wanted any of the things you mentioned for its frigate class, it would have designed a bigger frigate. Fact is that replenishment ships and newer bases along the lines of Djibouti have mitigated any significant need for larger frigates to have greater "range" and "endurance", as if such ships would ever even go out on distant deployments without a replenishment ship in any case. The IEP nature of the 054B should already be mitigating against range, endurance, and size increases all by itself anyway. And why a frigate needs to have extra room for SOF is beyond me, as is the need for land attack capabilities that somehow can't be provided by slant launchers or by UVLS modules.

You can't build a force structure around the availability of overseas bases, as it then becomes a trivial exercise to cripple PLAN's ability to operate, no less than if USAF sized its bomber aircraft only to be able to reach China from Guam. You might as well be flashing a "strike boss here for massive damage" sign. Warship characteristics reflect intended mission profiles. Is it really so difficult to imagine that a design that had its origins in the early 2000s and the strategic requirements and ambitions of the nation at that time may not be perfectly matched to the nation's strategic requirements and ambitions in the 2030s and beyond?

And yet you are arguing for a significantly larger new frigate class that based on your descriptions won't even remotely be in the same ballpark as the 054A, and as part of a two-tier blue water navy, no less, which means its numbers will be significantly jacked up compared to a three-tier navy. You can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry.

No. The jumping off point for this discussion was the idea that PLAN is *not* going to slim down to a two or three-type navy. The vessel I am proposing would be in addition to ongoing 054 and 052 series development and is merely an illustration of the possibilities that exist for the future. We can have a discussion about the merits of the specific suggestion, but the broader point is this: superpowers find that they have all sorts of requirements, and they have the budgets and depth of force structure to invest not only in "swiss army knife" capabilities, but relatively niche ones as well.

I'm fairly certainly you would not be able to achieve your dreams for this supercorvette in a hull of 2,000t or less. Even my own far more modest dreams for a PLAN corvette cannot be accomplished in a design of less than 1,800t.

I agree that a vessel of at least 2000 tons would probably be required. The limits before such a vessel ceases to make sense (as a complement to 054x, coming at the implicit opportunity cost of building additional 054x hulls) are basically determined by a handful of comparative ratios: acquisition cost, operating cost and personnel costs, vs. capabilities. 67% is probably the upper limit, i.e. the point at which you should just build more 054x frigates.

The ridiculous thing about this discussion is that you seem to acknowledge that 056 is inadequate and calls for a more capable successor. That is to say, you acknowledge that a capability gulf exists between the 056 and 054 types that could and should be narrowed. The rest is quibbling over details, although a major point of departure seems to be the conceptual emphasis I place on littoral ASW, which is because in the long run I expect this to emerge as the primary challenge for Chinese naval supremacy in the region, as the US carrier groups retreat from this position in the face of broad array of capabilities that will increasingly threaten them.

Will respond to submarine stuff later.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Pretty certain that the Type 054B frigate is from a decided PLAN 4000 ton displacement requirement, same as the 054A. That decision for the 054B may have been made early in 2016, picking from various design proposals, the losing ones eventually became what CSSC displayed in the defense show at Abu Dhabi as export frigates, which are pegged at 4000 tons. As usual, things and proposals that are not accepted by the PLA end up being offered for export.

Recent display of export submarine designs last year may also be an indication of a Yuan class successor already at work, and the designs hint to that, which maybe a single hull this time.
 
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