PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I do know what geosynchronous orbit is.

Plus I imagine the satellite has some capability (thrusters) to re-orient and move its scan box. However, it would come at the expense of satellite life.
I doubt it.
Basically geosynchronous orbit is a very high orbit and is able to see 1/3 of the globe so it doesn't require to re-orient orbit. The down side is since it's in such high orbit the present optics can't keep up and is not able to identify individual objects.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I don't think so.

Basically it could be a bulk carrier or even a container ship.
There are larger class ships you failed to mention like the Capesize and larger ore carriers.
For you to defeat my argument, you DON'T want to cite "larger class ships like the Capesize and larger ore carriers". You want to cite ships that are as close in dimensions to 333 x 77 m as possible. The longer the ship is compared to a carrier, the more likely a lower resolution imager can distinguish between it and an actual carrier. The key problem for you as I have already mentioned and you obviously were unable to grasp, is that for obvious hydrodynamic reasons, commercial ships with similar lengths as a Nimitz carrier invariably have a much narrower beam, and ships with a similar beam to a Nimitz carrier invariably have much greater lengths. This makes it much easier to distinguish a carrier from a commercial vessel than would otherwise be the case.

Not actually. You have a habit of shifting conversations around and so I need to confine the conversation one at a time.
Sorry, no go. You lost all the other ones. Time to man up about it. The only one with shifting conversations is yourself, as I have clearly documented using quotes from the two of us.

I should remind you that you are the one making the claim over China's near real time surveillance capability. To-date you have offer no evidence but conjectures to support your claim. I could easily just invoke Hutchens Razor and discount your assertion as merely unsubstantiated.
You are the one making the claim, so where are your technical analysis in support of your assertion?
OK, let me ask you directly: what exactly do you mean by "technical analysis"? What are you looking for with this that would satisfy you?

The CBO study gives a baseline on satellite coverage as a reference point. It may be that a 1.0 m resolution is not required to classify a carrier. However it should be noted that texture analysis using algorithm is used to scan for the carrier. It is not an exercise of using the human eye to filter. Low resolution images is a source of error.
Thank you for confirming that the CBO study on North Korean surveillance is irrelevant to the topic of carrier tracking in the open ocean. You know, if I were the one posting that study up I would at least have manned up and posted a full disclosure with it stating this study was based on a 1 m resolution premise. You however were content to try and let that slip by, and if I had let you go without contesting the flaw in your argumentation, would have been happy to claim victory using this piece.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I see a lot of BS is spewing in this thread Every commercial ship carry transponder to identify themselves That is the insurance requirement So the Chinese can clearly see who is on the ocean. They even have web based Automatic ship identification system
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The Chinese has built an automatic system to identify, track carrier. How do we know it?. Because the lead scientist was publicly commended and given award for scientific and engineering achievement. Some of the member here maybe can dig it . It is buried somewhere under the missile thread.

They system probably not depend on visual or SAR only. But it also track electromagnetic etc . So Carrier op doing CAP with aircraft launch and retrieve periodically is tell tale sign of Carrier

The Indian did some simulation not too long ago and their conclusion is here
For detail here it is
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China’s Constellation of Yaogan Satellites & the Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile: October 2015 Update
Authors: S. Chandrashekar and Soma Perumal
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With the recent launches of the Yaogan 26 and Yaogan 27 satellites China has demonstrated its ability to routinely identify, locate and track an Aircraft Carrier Group (ACG) on the high seas. This space capability is an important component of an Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM) System that China has set up.

The current operational satellite constellation consists of ELINT satellites, satellites carrying Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) sensors as well as satellites carrying optical imaging sensors.

Based on the orbit characteristics, their local time of equatorial crossing and other related parameters, these satellites can be grouped into different categories that perform the various functions for identifying, locating and tracking the ACG.

Yaogan 9 (Yaogan 9A, 9B, 9C), Yaogan 16 (16A, 16B, 16C), Yaogan 17 (17A, 17B, 17C), Yaogan 20 (20A, 20B, 20C) and Yaogan25 (25A, 25B, 25C) are the five triplet cluster equipped with ELINT sensors that provide broad area surveillance over the Oceans. With a coverage radius of about 3500 Km, they provide the first coarse fix for identifying and locating an ACG in the Pacific Ocean. Yaogan 20 and Yaogan 25 may be replacements for the Yaogan 9 and the Yaogan 16 that may be nearing the end of their lives.

Yaogan 23, Yaogan 10, Yaogan 18, Yaogan 14 and Yaogan 21 are the current operational satellites carrying a SAR sensor. With Local times of crossing of 02 00, 06 00, 10 00, 14 00 hours and 1730 hours, they provide all weather as well as day and night imaging capabilities over the regions of interest.

The Yaogan 26 which had replaced the Yaogan 12 which in turn had replaced the Yaogan 5 has the orbital characteristics of a SAR mission but its local time of crossing is 10 30 AM. This is very close to the 10 00 hours crossing time of the Yaogan 18 SAR satellite. This could therefore be either a SAR mission or a high resolution optical imaging mission. From the orbit characteristics this may possibly carry a SAR.

Yaogan 11, Yaogan 4, Yaogan 24 and Yaogan 7 constitute the high resolution optical satellites in the current constellation. The sensors they carry may have resolutions of between 1 to 3 m. Their local times of crossing of 09 00, 11 00, 13 30, and 15 00 hours respectively ensure favourable illumination conditions for their imaging missions.

Yaogan 27, Yaogan 19, Yaogan 22 and Yaogan 15 satellites with local times of crossing of 09 30, 10 30, 13 30 and 14 30 hours respectively are optical imaging satellites with medium resolution (3 to 10 m) capabilities. They act as a broad area coverage complement for the SAR as well as the high resolution optical imaging satellites. Yaogan 27 is a replacement for the Yaogan 8 that may be nearing the end of its life.

Using typical sensor geometries and the two line orbital elements available from public sources the ability of the current constellation to identify, locate and track the ACG was simulated.

Assuming that any three of the ELINT clusters are operational at any given point in time the ELINT satellites typically make 18 contacts in a day with the moving target. The maximum period for which the target remains outside the reach of the ELINT satellites is about 90 minutes in a day.

The SAR and the optical imaging satellites together typically provide 24 satellite passes over the target. About 16 targeting opportunities, during which the uncertainty in the target’s location is less than 10 km, are available in a day.

The analysis and the simulation results suggest that China has in place an operational ASBM system that can identify, locate, track and destroy an Aircraft Carrier in the Pacific Ocean. This seems to be an important component of a larger Chinese Access and Area Denial Strategy focused around a conflict over Taiwan.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I doubt it.
Basically geosynchronous orbit is a very high orbit and is able to see 1/3 of the globe so it doesn't require to re-orient orbit. The down side is since it's in such high orbit the present optics can't keep up and is not able to identify individual objects.

Would the camera be able to traverse across a 120degree field of view? At the edges, it essentially becomes a side view of a ship.

Someone already posted a 50m resolution picture of a carrier, which is readily identifiable due to the unique shape and size of the flight deck.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
... and let me state the obvious: at slightly higher resolution, some typical CVGB formation should become apparent (an example:
George_Washington_Carrier_Strike_Group.jpg




here I can only repeat
Yesterday at 2:09 PM
It is not a war time deployment ;)
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Would the camera be able to traverse across a 120degree field of view? At the edges, it essentially becomes a side view of a ship.

Someone already posted a 50m resolution picture of a carrier, which is readily identifiable due to the unique shape and size of the flight deck.
Traverse the lens?
Usually the lens is fixed and you digitally zoom into the point of interest.
As for the one posted I believe it was a pixel representation that the poster made and not an actual image.
Basically optical pictures will be more blurry due to halation, drop offs and/or other optical effects and a single pixel would be in either black or white with very little gradation of grey since it will be a very fast sweep with which it will not pick up much information from one single point.
 

superdog

Junior Member
Don't expect the Gaofen 4 to single-handedly detect and track CVBG using a 50m resolution camera. Realistically, a whole system is required, in which some high resolution/low refresh satellite will be used for identification, and some low resolution/high refresh satellite like the Gaofen 4 will be used for tracking.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
50m resolution is not good enough yet. But hypothetical next generation, equipped with optics which would theoretically give 0.3 or so resolution from 600 km high, would yield quite acceptable resolution from GEO.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The Chinese has built an automatic system to identify, track carrier. How do we know it?. Because the lead scientist was publicly commended and given award for scientific and engineering achievement. Some of the member here maybe can dig it . It is buried somewhere under the missile thread.
Just because some scientists and or engineers received rewards doesn't mean China did indeed build a capable system. It's possible China has the technology and knowhow, but a fully implemented system to track carriers in the WP, ECS, and SCS is a different matter.

The analysis and the simulation results suggest that China has in place an operational ASBM system that can identify, locate, track and destroy an Aircraft Carrier in the Pacific Ocean. This seems to be an important component of a larger Chinese Access and Area Denial Strategy focused around a conflict over Taiwan.
Analysis and simulations aren't proof. At best they show possible capability, but that's all we could confidently conclude. The proof is in the pudding, and we haven't tasted it yet.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
How many ASBM test carried out against a large moving vessels?

In-contrast, when we look at other programs,

DF-ZF (Wu-14) HGV has had 7 tests, at least 6 were successful
1x successful ASAT test (2007)
2x successful ground-based midcourse missile interception (2010, 2013)

Yet, when it comes to ASBM tests.......especially moving targets, there is almost no data.
 
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